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  Re: Dual core CPUs, donít get your hopes up 
 
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Sean B Jan 28, 2005, 07:23am EST Reply - Quote - Report Abuse
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Edited: Jan 28, 2005, 07:25am EST

 
>> Re: Re: Dual core CPUs, donít get your hopes up
It is... which is what the design I'm coming up with circumvents.


I'm just saying, if you had an AGP controller with the amount of bandwidth of the processor and the graphics card, it would almost be a direct stream of data, opposed to bursts.


Oh, and the hard drive goes through the southbridge too... which is kinda why AMD's integration of the memory controller doesn't make too much sense yet.

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Kash Jan 28, 2005, 07:31am EST Reply - Quote - Report Abuse
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>> Re: Re: Dual core CPUs, donít get your hopes up
It does? I mean, I can see how it would... But that means for the processor to calculate everything from the HDD, it'd have to go from the HDD, to the SouthBridge, up to the NorthBridge, to the CPU, then back to the NB, then the SB, then to the HDD... And sending stuff to the RAM gets thrown in there, too, and sometimes to the video card...

And I remember looking at a diagram once... I could have sworn I saw the HDD shown being connected to the NB...

Sincerely,
Kash

AMD AM2 3600+ Brisbane (65nm), DFI Infinity UltraII-M2, 1GB Wintec AMPO DDR2-800 @ 667, Sapphire X1950 Pro, 250GB WD SATA II, 500W Coolmax PSU, Logitech MX500, Gateway PS/2 keyboard (circa 1999)
Sander Sassen Jan 28, 2005, 07:38am EST Reply - Quote - Report Abuse
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>> Re: Re: Dual core CPUs, donít get your hopes up
Chipset design is a whole different ballgame, as it actually is pure logic; most chipsets don't have any computational capabilities like processors do. The key point with everything on a chipset is that its performance is closely governed by the bandwidth available to it. If a Northbridge has a 4GB/s link to the Southbridge it doesn't really matter much if the HDD is connect to it or the Southbridge directly. The bandwidth available and the inherent latencies in a HDD will not make it perform any worse, as it has ample bandwidth to transfer the date.

In terms of latencies things are somewhat different though, for harddisks chipset latency is negligible, simply because the mechanical latency imposed by the head assembly and swing arm is several magnitudes greater. If some engineer chooses to run their memory modules off of the Northbridge his fellow engineers would mock him though, as there every nanosecond counts. Hence AMD's Athlon 64 does so well in that respect, with the memory controller integrated on the die.

Sander Sassen
Editor in Chief - Hardware Analysis
ssassen@hardwareanalysis.com
Sean B Jan 28, 2005, 07:47am EST Reply - Quote - Report Abuse
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>> Re: Re: Dual core CPUs, donít get your hopes up
But you have to consider the fact that we're talking about mere nanoseconds shaved off in integrating the memory controller.

While there is a potential for more bandwidth in addition to the slightly lower latency, there's really no way to properly allocate either of them, unless of course you're trying to use your ram as a ramdrive.


If the processor had a co-logic controller that could address the hard drive to a direct and private channel, interfacing with algorithms such as native command queuing could be easier.

While it might not improve bandwidth or mechanical latency(both of which are attributed to lack of new hard disk technology), it could allow the processor to determine a better assessment of the drive... not to mention eliminate the need for larger hard drive caches.

Kash Jan 28, 2005, 07:47am EST Reply - Quote - Report Abuse
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Edited: Jan 28, 2005, 07:51am EST

 
>> Re: Re: Dual core CPUs, donít get your hopes up
*points out a grammar mistake in the last sentence in the last paragraph of Sander's post*... Neener, neener, neener...

But thanks for the helpful info...

Sincerely,
Kash

AMD AM2 3600+ Brisbane (65nm), DFI Infinity UltraII-M2, 1GB Wintec AMPO DDR2-800 @ 667, Sapphire X1950 Pro, 250GB WD SATA II, 500W Coolmax PSU, Logitech MX500, Gateway PS/2 keyboard (circa 1999)
Sander Sassen Jan 28, 2005, 07:58am EST Reply - Quote - Report Abuse
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>> Re: Re: Dual core CPUs, donít get your hopes up
I don't see it, where? You nitpicking little ... :)

Sander Sassen
Editor in Chief - Hardware Analysis
ssassen@hardwareanalysis.com
Kash Jan 28, 2005, 08:03am EST Reply - Quote - Report Abuse
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Edited: Jan 28, 2005, 08:05am EST

 
>> Re: Re: Dual core CPUs, donít get your hopes up
YOU CHEATED! NOT FAIR!!!... You mispelled "so" in the very last sentence of your last paragraph!!! You put "soo" instead of "so"! I saw it!...Cheatin', fast computered, mother f-...*trails off grumbling*...

EDIT: And I say that Sander cheated, for all those to know, because he edited his post but it didn't come up as saying "This post edited on..." Sander cheated. Boooo... BOOOOO!

I'll still have your baby, though, Sander... I mean, what? Gimme a computer....

EDIT 2: Or a job... :)

Sincerely,
Kash

AMD AM2 3600+ Brisbane (65nm), DFI Infinity UltraII-M2, 1GB Wintec AMPO DDR2-800 @ 667, Sapphire X1950 Pro, 250GB WD SATA II, 500W Coolmax PSU, Logitech MX500, Gateway PS/2 keyboard (circa 1999)
Sander Sassen Jan 28, 2005, 08:08am EST Reply - Quote - Report Abuse
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>> Re: Re: Dual core CPUs, donít get your hopes up
Hehehe, guess I did yes, just to get back at you :)

Sander Sassen
Editor in Chief - Hardware Analysis
ssassen@hardwareanalysis.com
Lost Faith Jan 28, 2005, 08:11am EST Reply - Quote - Report Abuse
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Edited: Jan 28, 2005, 08:14am EST

 
>> Re: Re: Dual core CPUs, donít get your hopes up
"quote Sean B: Oh, and the hard drive goes through the southbridge too... which is kinda why AMD's integration of the memory controller doesn't make too much sense yet."

hmmm explain, cuz unlike your chipset's implication, I think (and I don't know that much about it) that HDD controllers on the northbridge with current hdd architecture and speeds is a little too premature.

I think your solution would (only) be feasible when hdd reach levels of (slow) ramdisks like pc100 (non DDR) type disks.
but for this era of mainly sata (150 & sataII 300) & ata (100/133) which is affordable for most (home) users
a successful implementation would not be possible right now.

Explain the part why you think AMD's on-die memory controller doesn't make "much sense" and also what it has to do (why you compare?) with the HDD &southbridge solution.

I'll be following events closely (while playing with my new toy 6600GT :D)



"quote LCF: And I remember looking at a diagram once... I could have sworn I saw the HDD shown being connected to the NB..."

No really, (sata/pata)ide-bus is using pci based controllers (i don't know exactly how to state it...) and those are situated in the southbridge, remember raidcards etc also being pci-based?

--------------------------------------------------------------
-Lostfaith

Barton 2600+ @205x11=2255mhz - GA-7NNXP - CM Jet7 - 2x512 Kingstons PC3200 @2.5-3-3-11 - PNY 6600GT @617/1175 - 3x120GB+1x200GB HDD's - 2 Liteon Burners - 600Crap PSU
Lost Faith Jan 28, 2005, 08:18am EST Reply - Quote - Report Abuse
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Edited: Jan 28, 2005, 08:19am EST

 
>> Re: Re: Dual core CPUs, donít get your hopes up
ouch, this is what happens when you're installing games while surfing and posting on multiple forums and sites...

sorry for me lagging the conversation...




HI SANDER!!!!

*waves like a little girl seeing her favorite celebrety*


lmfao!

*edit: spelling's a b***h*

--------------------------------------------------------------
-Lostfaith

Barton 2600+ @205x11=2255mhz - GA-7NNXP - CM Jet7 - 2x512 Kingstons PC3200 @2.5-3-3-11 - PNY 6600GT @617/1175 - 3x120GB+1x200GB HDD's - 2 Liteon Burners - 600Crap PSU
Sean B Jan 28, 2005, 08:43am EST Reply - Quote - Report Abuse
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Edited: Jan 28, 2005, 08:44am EST

 
>> Re: Re: Dual core CPUs, donít get your hopes up
Well, the most important part is file allocation.

Allowing the processor to have direct access to the hard drive, opposed to going through I/O controllers and channels, would allow the processor to become the file allocator and rapidly prefetch files. Current prefetching has no logic or prediction behind it... it's typically told what to fetch before it's actually required. However, with the processor having entire access to the code even before the code has access to the file(provided that you have a prefetch handler looking for files within code) could allow it to handle this prefetching more efficiently.

Keep in mind that this is all currently unneccessary, considering applications haven't reached the complexity to require heavy prefetchers.


Current technology could benefit from the following:

You move everything that is read only to a flash or ramdrive.

While flash memories currently have very low bandwidth, the technology will soon be upgraded to up to UDMA100 speeds... and unlike current hard drives, flash memory can deliver 100Mbit/sec because the memory is static. This also means that files can be accessed quickly... with absolutely no seek time. Windows would boot instantly.

All other files that have dynamic properties, such as in an instance where they aren't read only or that they're user created files would be stored on a typical hard disk drive.


I don't think the onboard memory is practical for the average user because there's really no way for the additional available bandwidth or reduced latency to become significantly apparent. I would load up my system with 4GB of ram and devote 3GB to a ramdrive I could use for encoding. That could make use of the potential bandwidth, but I don't know very many people who'd need that.

I was commenting on the fact that with current hard disk technology(especially with internal bandwidths), the onboard memory controller is premature. It really has no essential use in current technology. AMD deserves a pat on the back for trying, though. They're the first CISC processor company to do that... RISC processors like the G5 already have it.

But my last note on hard disk tech is that the internal bandwidth barely hits 70MBit/sec, while the external bandwidth is now peaking at 3GBit/sec. Seems kinda lame if you ask me.... lazy hard drive manufacturers.


Kash Jan 28, 2005, 08:48am EST Reply - Quote - Report Abuse
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>> Re: Re: Dual core CPUs, donít get your hopes up
Sean, you say that you would load up your computer with 4GB of memory, or whatever... Wouldn't it be more cost-effective to just use the onboard memory controller, or whatever you're referring to?

And I'm sorry I'm not being more technical... it's about 9am and I've been up for about 21 hours... And I probably won't go to sleep until about 3am Saturday morning... if not later... like around 5am.

Sincerely,
Kash

AMD AM2 3600+ Brisbane (65nm), DFI Infinity UltraII-M2, 1GB Wintec AMPO DDR2-800 @ 667, Sapphire X1950 Pro, 250GB WD SATA II, 500W Coolmax PSU, Logitech MX500, Gateway PS/2 keyboard (circa 1999)
Sean B Jan 28, 2005, 09:00am EST Reply - Quote - Report Abuse
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>> Re: Re: Dual core CPUs, donít get your hopes up
I mean if I were to use an Athlon or any other processor with an on die memory controller, that's what I would do.

The on die memory controller allows a direct interface with the memory, which would give you a significant performance increase if you used a portion of your memory as ramdrive.

The only places data would go would be ramdrive >> processor >> ram >> processor >> ramdrive, which would be very fast due to potentially higher bandwidths and lower latencies.

Kash Jan 28, 2005, 09:11am EST Reply - Quote - Report Abuse
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>> Re: Re: Dual core CPUs, donít get your hopes up
Ah.... I don't understand because it's 9:11am.... whoa, wait a sec... *shudders* creepy.

Sincerely,
Kash

AMD AM2 3600+ Brisbane (65nm), DFI Infinity UltraII-M2, 1GB Wintec AMPO DDR2-800 @ 667, Sapphire X1950 Pro, 250GB WD SATA II, 500W Coolmax PSU, Logitech MX500, Gateway PS/2 keyboard (circa 1999)
D Harley Jan 28, 2005, 03:45pm EST Reply - Quote - Report Abuse
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>> Re: Re: Dual core CPUs, donít get your hopes up
This is along the lines of what I'm talking about Sean, except with using A64's or P4's with the corresponding chipset. Yep, thats dual cpu, ATX, 6 usb ports, and even onboard audio. Even DDR400!
http://www.newegg.com/app/ViewProductDesc.asp?description=13-1...amp;depa=0

While it's not exactly what my concept board would be, it's pretty close. As for Intels HD audio, I'm not interested in pluging in surround sound speakers to my HT/multifunctional PC. Strictly optical s/pdif inputs and outputs for recording, playback and pass through. The only problem seems to be the software. There's nothing wrong with the technology depending on whose chip you use. C-media appears to be better than realteks. The 24-bit/48-96 khz spec is the same as Creatives. Forget D/A conversion. Keep it ALL digital 'till it hits my HT receiver. With the newer Digital HT receivers you keep the signal digital all the way if I'm not mistaken. Yes, cpu usage increases but if you are even able to get a 50% performance increase using dual desktop cpu's (costing less than Xeon's,Opteron's) then the cost of the extra cpu would be worth it compared to the expected ridiculous cost of dual core. As you can see, the cost of this board is NOT prohibitive nowadays.

Won't longhorn also be advantageous to SMP??
If Nvidia's load balancing Sli solution yields a 70% performance increase with the dual 6600gt then it is worth consideration when it outperforms an equally priced 6800. IMHO

Who Knows? Jan 31, 2005, 03:37am EST Reply - Quote - Report Abuse
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>> Re: Re: Dual core CPUs, donít get your hopes up
how about using the ram to pick up the slack, instead of everything waiting on the hard drive the ram can hold and deliver data. so would that be usefull and efficient bandwidth, like mapping? or how about compressing and uncompressing.

Sean B Jan 31, 2005, 04:29am EST Reply - Quote - Report Abuse
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>> Re: Re: Dual core CPUs, donít get your hopes up
Harley, SLi'ed cards don't really offer 70% performance increases in real world use.

They're merely a scheme to boast about benchmark scores.

I personally am waiting for the 7 Series cards to come out... the 6 series isn't too impressive.



Jack... that's what I do when I'm rendering video. The problem is it's hard to do that for normal use.

Who Knows? Jan 31, 2005, 05:45am EST Reply - Quote - Report Abuse
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>> Re: Re: Dual core CPUs, donít get your hopes up
ok, sounds good to me.

is ramdrive something you designate or is it just your terminoligy for effecient use?
if you have to designate to make a ramdrive, what do I do?

thanks!

Sean B Jan 31, 2005, 06:06am EST Reply - Quote - Report Abuse
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>> Re: Re: Dual core CPUs, donít get your hopes up
http://www.superspeed.com/desktop/ramdisk.php


Easiest software to use to make it work.

carl0s ki Jan 31, 2005, 08:11am EST Reply - Quote - Report Abuse
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>> Re: Re: Dual core CPUs, donít get your hopes up
i dont understand why MS would possibly have to recode the entire Windows Operating system like someone said

wouldn't it just require them to do a few small modification then compile it using a 64bit AMD processor?

linux software seems to work like that :)


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