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  Re: Piracy, the good, the bad and the ugly? 
 
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varun rao Feb 08, 2005, 12:19pm EST Reply - Quote - Report Abuse
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"Weíll ascribe that to ignorance is bliss, because even a small child understands that taking a candy bar is stealing and so is downloading copyrighted material off of the internet.'

Well Said.


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Curtis Flanagan Feb 08, 2005, 12:52pm EST Reply - Quote - Report Abuse
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>> Re: Re: Piracy, the good, the bad and the ugly?
Is it though?

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X8to Feb 08, 2005, 01:07pm EST Reply - Quote - Report Abuse
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>> Re: Re: Piracy, the good, the bad and the ugly?
From some random blog i found...
Why piracy is bad for you...
Did you see this article? Intego warns of second Trojan Horse; Apple, MS respond

Summary: There's a 60k file floating around the peer to peer networks that pretends it is an installer for Microsoft Word 2004, when it is really an AppleScript that uses shell commands to delete your user folder.

This is a good quote:

"Good security is as much about behavior as it is technology. Anyone downloading software from file trading sites takes unnecessary chances, said Jupiter's Wilcox. "Apple offers an excellent legal music service. Mac users that traffic P2P networks, were illegal music files are traded, take unnecessary risks.

Why take the risk? Go buy Microsoft Office 2004 today! Heck, buy 59 of them!

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I do own Office albeit an old version (i.e. Classic). I undestand the why some people have trouble bringing themselves to upgrade or purchase the suite or just the individual apps. I use it for home use only, but I have to make sure anyone can read my documents so .doc is necessary. I do occasionally finish proofing work docs at home so I do not have to save to .txt and then move back to Word again when at the office. Fortunately TextEdit does .doc now so I no longer have to spend over $100 just for Word that I use very occasionally use.

I just hope MS puts out a Demo on their site like they did with the original Word for OSX. I would like to see if it might be time to plunk down some cash for an OSX version. I do agree, Why even use p2p if the company has a download site? Besides it's like buying a TV set in the ally, you get what you pay for. On the flip side more companies need Demos or Cripple-ware like MAYA, to help me make that hard decision. A lot of times $300 dollars goes to and can be justified for the car or immediate home improvement way before software and computer upgrades.

I remember when P2P used to be a private network for classmates sharing large CAD files and graphic files, documents, and other engineering files for a common project. This method was used to setup server and common file access for non-geeks. I loved being able to move to any computer lab or working from home. Now that is all easy with my Geek skills and the new Windows, Mac and *nix OSes.

Once again this is not my work.
Just some weird middle-age geeks from alberqueque! :)

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OCGW Feb 08, 2005, 01:08pm EST Reply - Quote - Report Abuse
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Edited: Feb 08, 2005, 02:37pm EST

 
>> Re: Re: Piracy, the good, the bad and the ugly?
I will coin the term "selective ignorance"

The Hollywood, & music industry has been ripping off the public w/ "ILLEGAL PRICE FIXING" for decades ( & have been foung guilty of this in court)

The real moral question is

Is it a sin to steal from those that have stolen from you?

I don't claim to know the answer, but I damn sure know what the real question is?

Example: GM (my employer) has underpaid thousands of workers millions of dollars that they will probably never see

Does it make me "bad" if I take some tools home?

I am not losing any sleep over it

OCGW

PEACE

Qui Gon Jinn Feb 08, 2005, 01:15pm EST Reply - Quote - Report Abuse
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Edited: Feb 08, 2005, 01:17pm EST

 
>> Re: Re: Piracy, the good, the bad and the ugly?
Well in music CD for example you donīt like (well not every time) the whole CD, so what do you do? you download the songs that you like from it, sometimes the whole producto isnīt as much as attractive as a piece form the product.

Same thing for games, sometimes you download a game without knowing it and then you donīt like it so you erase it...I would consider the pirates of software and music the best beta testers, for everything.

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Dale Broadbent Feb 08, 2005, 01:32pm EST Reply - Quote - Report Abuse
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>> You can't have everything you want
All of your arguments smack of good old rationalization. If you want to believe something, there are ways to make it palletable so you can swallow it. Look at muslim extremists who somehow convince themselves that suicide bombing is good and desired by Allah, the Nazi regime that convinced themselves (and a large portion of the people) that killing Jews was okay becuase they were little more than rodents, Southern slave owners in the 1800s that convinced themselves it was okay to beat, mutillate, and ultimately kill slaves because they were Black.... this list goes on and on and on - it's been going on since Eve convinced herself that eating that fruit was okay because it looked really tasty - and after all, if it brought wisdom, then why had God held them back from eating it? I mean come on - just how much money does it cost to compose, perform, and produce a musical album? I have no idea but I'd hedge a bet it's in the millions today. What about movies? What was the final price tag for the Lord of the Rings trillogy? You like their albums, you enjoy their movies? Then pay the damn fees they charge and stop rationalizing your thievery. If everyone had this mentality, no one would bother to make anything because they'd know right off that they'd never recoup their investment.

I worked in the computer game industry for a while and I know the effects piracy has on sales and the bottom line. I just paid $85 for Half Life 2 back in November. Thanks to pirates, I didn't have the opportunity to buy this game for the normal $45. I had to pay nearly twice that. If people weren't so damn greedy and wanting to possess whatever they set their eyes on - for free! - I could do a simple thing like buy a music CD for $11 or buy a game for $35. But rarely anymore. It really is a crying shame.

I don't download music or movies. As a result, there are many things I don't get to hear, and many movies I don't get to see. I'm not very happy about that. But that's the way it has always been - you can't have everything you want, you learn to do fine with less and be satisfied with that. How has our society progressed to the point where we just have to have everything we want, and we'll do whatever it takes to get it? That's really sad. People go into massive credit card debt, take out second and third mortgages on their homes, and STEAL so they can have the hundreds of things they want. You wouldn't believe the theft that goes on continually at American consumer electronics retail stores across the country. Our society really needs some help.

Sorry to rain on your parade, but piracy is just plain wrong, regardless of how you'd like to try and rationalize it.
Dale Broadbent
Raleigh, NC

Curtis Flanagan Feb 08, 2005, 02:14pm EST Reply - Quote - Report Abuse
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>> Re: Re: Piracy, the good, the bad and the ugly?
depends what you class as piracy, i believe its ok to download a game i already have in case of emergency which happens alot qith little bros and sis running around.
But yet that is classed as piracy even though ive paid for the product.

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varun rao Feb 08, 2005, 02:34pm EST Reply - Quote - Report Abuse
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>> Re: Re: Piracy, the good, the bad and the ugly?
what if I bought Half Life 2 then decided that the whole steam thing is a fearking rip-off and downloaded a pirated copy... would this be piracy??.. yes but its a sign of protest more than anything else.... picketting cyber-style.

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OCGW Feb 08, 2005, 02:41pm EST Reply - Quote - Report Abuse
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Edited: Feb 14, 2005, 12:25am EST

 
>> Re: Re: Piracy, the good, the bad and the ugly?
I never said it was OK to steal

I just don't get worked up about people that steal from THIEVES, or DOPE DEALERS

Now if you are robbing the church, or little old ladies, don't let me catch you

Anyway, downloading copywrighted material is not illegal, reselling it is

Possesion of copywrighted material is not PIRACY, Selling copywrighted material is PIRACY, using it for personal use is not

OCGW

PEACE



rex langdon Feb 08, 2005, 02:46pm EST Reply - Quote - Report Abuse
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>> Re: Re: Piracy, the good, the bad and the ugly?
Dale is exacly right.Sander is rationalizing this problem.Compitition is
good for the consumer,but steeling to achieve it is wrong.Buying the
best songs out of an album for .99 cents seems like a fair deal.Not
all the songs on a album are worth owning (some albums yes).I
am quilty of this ,trying to buy a record and not finding it for sale
for .99 cents,I went and took it off a PTP site.Most songs I paid for.

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King Mongo Feb 08, 2005, 03:15pm EST Reply - Quote - Report Abuse
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>> piracy
Rationalizations are great, but they're always flawed as arguments. The only way piracy can be justified is if one admits the truth:

"I pirate software/media because I don't want to pay for it, and I can get away with it."

Any other rational is flawed, and a coverup. People will generally do whatever they can that is both (a) to their personal benefit, and (b) that they can get away with. P2P piracy is a pretty clear indicator of this maxim, that when the calculus of felicity nets an extremely positive result, even with possible risks factored in, folks will gladly behave in an immoral manner.

J C Feb 08, 2005, 03:19pm EST Reply - Quote - Report Abuse
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>> Re: Re: Piracy, the good, the bad and the ugly?
What is the difference between downloading an album using Peer To Peer software and borrowing or lending a CD from/to a friend? I'm sure none of us would hessitate to borrow a CD from a friend would we?

King Mongo Feb 08, 2005, 03:20pm EST Reply - Quote - Report Abuse
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>> Re: Re: Piracy, the good, the bad and the ugly?
Interestingly enough, during the 60s, the San Francisco Police Department offered amnesty to drug dealers who reported robberies against them, in order to get assistance with busting criminals who were preying on the local dealers, who were scared to report the crime to the police (the "stolen property" in question being, after all, contraband).

It gets pretty messy when you attempt to rationalize theft from an industry. Sure, nobody likes big-shot recording industry executives. But, what about the folks in their warehouse, or their human resources department? Is it cool to steal from a single parent making $20,000 a year in the mail room? What about the impact of declining profits on the ability of the company to provide Christmas bonuses? If you want to hurt recording industry executives, go mug them *personally*. Stealing from the company they work for doesn't hurt them in the least.

It's sort of like applying sanctions against a corrupt dictatorship--the people suffer, not the leadership.

Dale Broadbent Feb 08, 2005, 03:23pm EST Reply - Quote - Report Abuse
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>> Re: Re: Piracy, the good, the bad and the ugly?
I will agree with you that there are different "levels," per se, of piracy. Very true. The far end of the scale is what goes on in Asia with the wholesale copying/mass-producing of illegal media for worldwide sale (alot of this crappity crap you can find for sale on Ebay! - unwrapped merchandise, or merchandise -movies mainly- that are not in English, or computer games that come with no jewel cases, boxes, manuals, etc.)

Very true the above is called piracy. I wouldn't term downloading a file from a P2P network as piracy, but I would call it stealing. It's like the difference between using drugs and dealing drugs.

In the end, it's a part of society that doesn't have an easy resolution. And it's easy to harp on it and tell people they're wrong for doing it - I know this. It is like whenever you get into a discussion with some goody-two-shoes who says that speeding (on the freeway, roads, etc) is wrong. Of course it's wrong - it's against the law to drive 56mph in a 55mph zone. But we all do it and no one feels bad about it, and there's little consequences for speeding (unless you're just going nuts and traveling 80mph+). In the same way, P2P sharing of copyritten material is technically illegal and it is called stealing, unless you own the music you're copying, which is unlikely. But many do it, don't feel bad about it, and there are few consequences (unless you go crazy and begin to setup your own networks for the distribution of this stuff - to "promote free and fair trading of music" or as a show of protest agains the RIAA). Furthermore, there's little impact from downloading just one song, right? I mean, you're not going to give it to anyone else, right?

Wrong - a huge, resounding WRONG. Sure you downloaded one song from this album here and another song from some other album there - so, from a $13 album you're downloading just $.99 worth without paying for it. That's not so bad, right? but think about it. What is the nature of P2P? It is file SHARING. Your computer unwittingly (or knowingly) becomes a part of this vast network - another node, if you will. Now you've just become an illegal media trader/dealer and hundreds or thousands of people are gaining further access to this material. Pretty soon, you have dozens of songs, none of which you've paid for, and for each song you're sharing, hundreds of people are having their file downloading of this song further facilitated by your added bandwidth. It's pure genious - the evil sort. And it's fueling a generation that just can't say "no" to what they want.

Sure it sucks what the RIAA is doing - sueing a little girl, sueing a dead grandmother, etc. But there are solutions (see that recent issue of Wired magazine that showcased those artists that are offering up their new music to be publicly shared). But until a new system is put into place, these artists *have* to, absolutely have to make a profit otherwise they'll stop making the things we love.

OCGW Feb 08, 2005, 03:27pm EST Reply - Quote - Report Abuse
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Edited: Feb 08, 2005, 03:30pm EST

 
>> Re: Re: Piracy, the good, the bad and the ugly?
Somebody post a link to (1), just (1) United States law that states it is illegal to download copywrighted material

Here is the law

http://www.copyright.gov/title17/chapter05.pdf

It is illegal to distribute copywrighted material, it is NOT illegal for you to receive it

OCGW

PEACE

brian pope Feb 08, 2005, 03:27pm EST Reply - Quote - Report Abuse
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>> Re: Re: Piracy, the good, the bad and the ugly?
In Canada there was a recent court ruling that said putting files in a shared folder is no different than going to the library & using the photo copier or a law library & using the copier there, which is what started the case to begin with.

Sure you can claim whatever you like about images & documents on your website, but the reality is if I copy them it isn't a violation of copyright. It only becomes an issue of copyright if I try to sell them for profit.

If you post something on the Internet for all to see, in a nutshell that's your problem.

Is it stealing when you download something you wouldn't buy in the first place?

The recording industry has never lost a cent to P2P & that's a fact, what the recording industry has lost is it's double digit year over year sales increases. Now instead of having 18% increase in sales over the previous year it's down to 8%. They have yet to report a loss for any given year, the money they claim to have "lost" is the difference in year to year sales increases nothing more, go lookup the facts for yourself.

When GM posts increased sales of 6% one year & only 4% the next do they run around sueing people because they lost 2% in sales, I don't think so.

People need to look at the facts not the fiction the recording industry is touting.


OCGW Feb 08, 2005, 03:37pm EST Reply - Quote - Report Abuse
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Edited: Feb 14, 2005, 12:27am EST

 
>> Re: Re: Piracy, the good, the bad and the ugly?
Legal, & illegal are not synomonous w/ right, & wrong

It is legal to kill your unborn child, but it is not right (abortion)

It is not illegal to down load copywrighted material (for personal use), but maybe it is wrong

Read the Law, if it were intuitive, & made sense lawyers would not have to go to school for 8 years

http://www.copyright.gov/title17/chapter05.pdf

@ most you are civily liable, a P2P provider may have serious liability

OCGW

PEACE

Marijan Kovacevic Feb 08, 2005, 04:12pm EST Reply - Quote - Report Abuse
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>> Re: Re: Piracy, the good, the bad and the ugly?
forums are great places to read about peoples opinions..
And it is only opinions...

If you want to dive into the subject first adn the most important thing as starting point is to see what fact do we have here...

1st is as OCGV said. Is there ANY law against downloading copywrighted material.

2nd why you all trying to compare piracy with stealling candy.. It can not be compared!!!
What can be compared is if you go to CD store and steal CD box package..
If you download something from internet or copy it from friends CD there is NO STEALING
Because NO CD BOX with material is stolen.
What you can compare is like you go to shop and make a copy od Candy than take that candy. while original candy still stands in store..

I personaly would like to read about your definition fo stealing

3rd fact is.. What actually we are paying while buying games, music, movies or other intelectual property...
there we have 2 things. Media on which is stored material packed in box with aditional goods... And another is Licence to USE Material that is recorded on that material..

for example
When you buy a book or magazine or newspaper you pay One price for publishing cost and another for intelectual work of athur of that material...
The same is with CD-s/DVD-s
1 audio cd cost in production let say arround 1$. in store that cd cost 20$ interesting rate.
1:20

But what the fact is just gues the price rate between Material cost and intelectual property cost..
Imagine Car Ford that production of that car cost 10.000 $ and you pay on that according to rate 1:20 you pay 200.000 $ (for those who like to do radiculous comparation)....

I just show you here the nonsense in making comparation. especialy that stealing candy issue..

4th fact is that all of you who particitape wit your comments cover only small part of piracy issue...
To understand a problem and to talk about problem you have to be aware of every aspect that concerning the issue.

This reminds me on which car is the best on world.
PS: please do not respond on last question. It was example not a question.

OCGW Feb 08, 2005, 04:29pm EST Reply - Quote - Report Abuse
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>> Re: Re: Piracy, the good, the bad and the ugly?
There was a simular thread about copywright circumvention technology

They stopped 321 Studios from selling DVDXCOPY GOLD after a court battle

They made it illegal to Sell copywright circumvention technology

However, under the "Fair Use Act", it is still legal (for an individual) to use the technology for personal use

As always in UNITED STATES law, it is not the act, but the "intent" that determines guilt

That is one of the "pros" of living in a "FREE COUNTRY", yeah I know, there are some cons of living in a "FREE COUNTRY" too!

OCGW

PEACE

[GB]Link Feb 08, 2005, 04:33pm EST Reply - Quote - Report Abuse
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>> Re: Re: Piracy, the good, the bad and the ugly?
Power to yah sander

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Reid Bridges Feb 08, 2005, 04:48pm EST Reply - Quote - Report Abuse
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>> Re: Re: Piracy, the good, the bad and the ugly?
It goes much further then just downloaded software. I am guilty as many of trying programs that donít belong to me. But If I like them I always end up purchasing them. I am just sick of spending money on a program I need only to find out it is poorly written.
Second point I own a computer company and about half of the customers that bring their systems in for repair donít own nor have their software. This includes Windows XP. I can almost tell when a slapped together system comes in with Windows XP corp. on it, that it's going to be pirated. The problems arrive when they are no boots or the customer doesn't want to spend the money for me to fix all their problems. I then instruct them they have to buy Windows before I can reload the system. I have lost count of the $300 systems that had XP, Office and many more programs preloaded by some half rate computer shop. Then the customer becomes upset at me because I wont reinstall software they donít own for free, and the guy that loaded it for them the first time is either in jail or not to be found.
This is a problem that I deal with every day and frankly I am sick of it. I could make a lot more money if I didn't follow the law and Microsoftís rules. Most of my customers just call some body else and they say sure I will load XP for $50, I have even been in shops that have signs Windows XP loaded $50 no software, Photo Shop loaded $75.00 no software and so on. I asked one guy if this was illegal and he said no he purchased the software so he could install it all he wanted to. I really donít think even he believed that lie.
But the bottom line is you hurt the programmers and the companies that market software when you steal it. It does become inconvenient when you have to reload and you donít have the software or you need to update and cant because you donít own it.
But worst of all it makes programmers and software companies come up with new ways to combat piracy with activation and disks you can't copy, which costs us the consumer more money to buy the software and becomes a pain when people that really own the software have to reload Windows and reactivate all their software.


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