jp,

First of all, you should change your "System Standby" mode to "never" under "Power Options" of your control panel (if you haven't done so) although you can turn on the "Turn off Monitor" and "Turn off Hard Drives" features.

If it doesn't solve your problem, you can try use a power surge protector or even better using a UPS (backup power) and it doesn't have to be expensive (mine cost $30.) This way, you can be sure that it's not your power in your house causing all your problems.

Good Luck

Hi Johnny,

I tried all that you've suggested... long ago, to no avail, unfortunately. Those suggestions were the first that the Dell Tech Support went after.

I'm convinced this is a mfgr's problem, to have two machines both experiencing the exact same problems, and to see the people on this forum who have had the same problems... I'm positive it's a Dell problem.

tx for your help, anyway.

~jp

I too am having power supply difficulties with a Dell 8400. Dell has replaced the motherboard, memory, processor, and power supply. The second power supply just failed 12 hours after installation. All we get is a start button blinking orange. The earlier failure, the computer was dead but the processor fan ran at jet-like speed. This computer has been strange from the beginnning. I think there are design problems with the 8400.. We have six other Dells and none have given as many problems.

You've learned your lesson now, don't buy a Dell! I'm assuming there is a short somewhere and that is why your power supplies are failing. Did they install the motherboard? The motherboard has to be on stand-offs or it will short out everything.

You are right. I should not have bought another Dell. I am hearing more and more about Dell quality problems. But that is not surpising. To Dell, it's never been about the "stuff," it's always been about the money! I am convinced Dell has a building full of have little MBAs sitting around calculating the failure rate of the cheapest possible components to see whether a failure will occur within the average time an average consumer uses a computer. We are talking about disposable products here, not things built to last. It's about the money - so what if a few tech-type guys or professionals have a little trouble, like not being able to finish a project on time! Like the guy said, if automobiles were as troublesome as computers, we would go back to horses.

You said it all quite well. Is the motherboard mounted correctly, though? Never underestimate your ability to build your own computer. We will help anyone through it so that they don't buy a Dell or similar. I've worked with several technicians and many have big boners for Dells and I never understood it. When I talk about building my own they say "there's no warranty blah blah blah." The thing is you don't need a warranty if something is quality, and I also have warranties on all of my seperate parts. 3 year on case and power supply, 3 year on CPU, 3 Year on mobo, 5 on hard drive, 2 on videocard, etc etc. So the warranty is actually much better assuming you have troubleshooting skills.

I don't care as much about a warranty as I am about staying productive. When a box is down, it causes a lot of wasted time and effort. I want equipment that performs. I opened the case on the defective 8400 again. I do not see any offsets under the motherboard mounts. Are you saying Dell should have put insulators between the motherboard and the case? That seems so obvious. Any electrical component should be isolated from potential shorting. Does Dell save any money by not doing that if they have to keep replacing motherboards? Should we start building our own boxes? One advantage I can see, apart from the hardward issues, is that I would not have to try to unistall all of the software overhead and Dell monitoring stuff that comes with Dell computers. All of the "junk" that comes with a new Dell uses up memory and slows performance. We need "clean" Windows installations for CAD and high-end graphics, and do NOT need yet another free AOL subscription, or all of that crap that Dell puts in the system tray, start up folder, and register etc.

And I might add, I would be most happy with rack-mounted equipment that can be jerked out quickly so that a new video card or other item can be replaced quickly. Any suggestions?

And while I am complaining, the award-winning Dell service is fine, as far as it goes. But frankly, getting to a real person for service is a reall problem. Calling is hopeless because of 1) people in India are hard to understand, 2) they assume you are an idiot and ask things like "Have you turned on the computer?" or "Is the computer plugged in?" Trying to explain a technical problem to the call center people is hopeless. They just don't have the knowledge needed, and it's not always in those little translation books they use.

I think something rackmount is not going to help you any. Getting a standard ATX case is easy enough to work on, only requires the side panel to be removed with only needing to remove two thumbscrews. There should be about a centimeter space underneath the motherboard. When you build your own you screw in copper standoffs and the motherboard screws into those so that the solder joints under the board do not touch the case. Some cases have the "bumps" built in and that works fine as well. I'm assuming that's what the Dell case has but I'm not sure. I had a friend that mounted his motherboard directly to the case and he fried like 2-3 power supplies and a videocard in doing so..........and he was lucky.

Hi Guys,

While I'm sorry I'm hearing of others experiencing the same troubles with Dell/Dell 8400 as I am... I'm kind of comforted knowing it's not "me". I work from home, and my productivity has dropped by about 80% (I'm using a loaner PC, not like working w/my own) This is the sad part... Dell is VERY unwilling to help us out. I've not only got one, but TWO dead 8400's in my office, now. Took them to a completely different part of the city, and the fail mode was the same, there also. We've tried excalating the problem within Dell, and this is a joke. They will not fess up to the problem, and I'm quite frankly becoming very concerned that my problem will not be resolved. The one "supervisor" I spoke with last week suggested it was the OS. What a CROCK, as these machines both fail without a hard drive installed. I've actually brought them up in the BIOS, and they still die, with the same failure.

One of these boxes has had two motherboards put in... Dell has sent their tech to install them. I have not checked to see if there are stand-offs... makes sense, however.

Please post with more suggestions and/or resolutions to your same problems.

Thank you.

~jp

We have another on-site warranty service scheduled to replace the new power supply that was replaced a few days ago when the motherboard, power supply, processor and memory was replaced. But here's the amazing part. After putting the computer on the bench and plugging and unplugging it about 10 or 15 time, trying to get it to even boot, all of a sudden the machine comes to life! At first ran for about 5 minutes and then died. We got it to do that about five times. But then, on the sixth try, all of sudden it starts to run. It has been on for 24 hours. We have shut it down and it comes alive again. Can't make it fail. What is this about? We did look at the power settings once it started running and found that the techician had set them to hybernate mode. We unchecked that and all other power saving settings. It runs fine. Could Windows' power settings be affecting these machines?

The Windows power settings were the very first things I turned off, when my PC started failing. I have never had them turned on, since then. And... I've even had both of these dead Dell's fail in just the BIOS mode... no hard drive attached at all !!

I hear exactly what your saying about having them dead for a time, then all of a sudden they come to life, run a bit... but don't get too comfortable... it'll fail again, just wait and see

It's funny... I've got these TWO dead 8400's sitting on a bench, side by side... one works for a time, then dies, then the other, same thing. This is not a situation I believe Dell would be happy to have broadcast over the internet... a perfect experiment for proof of some sort of factory defect going on... be it mfgr of the ps, mb, or what have you. They need to fess up to this mess, and get it corrected. It's costing my employer big bucks to have me trouble shoot these terds over and over !!! (oh... and get this! the second 8400 they sent was very obviously USED !! It was caked inside with tons of very thick dust... we paid for NEW equipment)

Do a Google search on "Dell powers off randomly"... you'd be amazed at the number of forums talking of the exact same problems.

~jp

Hi guys. How did you miss the monster thread on this on the Dell forums? The url is:

http://forums.us.dell.com/supportforums/board/message?board.id....id=212055

I just posted a long-winded but hopefully groundbreaking post over there. Pasting below. Good luck.

---

Hello fellow DD8400FAPBLS (Dell Dimension 8400 Flashing Amber Power Button Light Sufferers) . Our next chapter meeting will be in Dallas, TX this coming July...

Listen, I think I've made a breakthrough here. It doesn't solve the problem but it gets us close to knowing what's really happening. I haven't posted to this thread before, but I've been active in some of the smaller DD8400FAPBL threads.

I won't try to summarize the whole thing. If you've read even part of this thread you know how elusive the problem is. In particular you'll see many people who thought they had it solved after swapping out the power supply, only to be slammed by the FAPBL all over again a few days or weeks later. Somehow all this swapping out of psu's, mobos, fans--in fact nearly all components in the box--has the odd effect of resetting the clock on FAPBL. Sooner or later it comes back.

What does this tell you? It should tell you the problem is some weird systemic thing literally outside all swappable components. This is indeed weird because nearly everything in a PC is swappable. So, what things are not swappable? Let's see... the case, the power button itself and its wiring back into the components, bus wiring that remains the same even when the mobo is swapped... that's about it.

A few weeks ago I became almost convinced the real culprit was an oversensitivity (probably in the aforementioned wiring) in the 8400 to "dirty" power line voltage. House and building current is often a little under or over the rated voltage, and any appliance that for whatever reason does not handle these mini dips and spikes as well as most appliances do will behave in strange ways. A toaster oven might go to 200 degrees when you set it for 350, a window fan may spin with an oscillating instead of a steady speed, a computer may bug out completely and flash its power button at you. Google "line conditioners" and you will see a whole array of products that try to counteract this (these things are beyond surge suppressors). In fact, I'd almost convinced myself that FAPBL was only happening when I had a certain ceiling fan running. I figured this fan was making all the current in this and nearby rooms go a little whacky, and my oversensitive 8400 couldn't deal with it.

Thought I had the problem isolated until one day, lo, the ceiling fan was not on and I was hit with FAPBL! But I was on the right track. It had something to do with those few pieces and/or wires that are never swapped. So I says, I says to meself "What's the likeliest condition in these pieces/wires? It's got to be something that's not making a good connection. Something loose or askew. And when that connection isn't sitting right then the bus and/or mobo and/or psu get hit with some sort of voltage anomaly and they decide to just shutdown. And what can I do that would shuffle things up and give me at least a 50-50 chance for this connection to land "on its feet" for a new bootup try after constant FAPBL? Why, just take the whole box and SHAKE!"

And that's what I did. Now, for 3 days running, this has been the routine: I sit down next to the box, put one hand on the rear top corner of the case and the other hand on the front top corner and I sHaKe that szucka like a babysitter-from-hades shaking the brains out of a crying baby. I give it a few punches on the sides, then ShAkE some more. Boot. Sometimes FAPBL happens anyway. More often it's a good boot and the puter stays good. I don't like to leave puters running, so I turn it off and probably just people walking around and stuff is enough to dislodge that tender little connection. So next day it's the same routine... You see, formerly when I got FAPBL it would simply stay that way. I could boot 100 times in a row and always FAPBL, sometimes a few seconds after pressing the button, sometimes a minute or so after Windows loaded, but always. With the shakeup I'm guaranteed hours of use after, at the very most, three bootups.

Yeah I'm still planning on needling Dell into doing a total system swap (I'm gonna demand something other than an 8400 unless they can show me this thing was specifically solved in later production runs, and I know they're not gonna show me that even though they know it to be true because they know I'll come on here and tell all about it and, lo, now they've admitted to a defective production run), but at least I was able to put together enough puter hours to prepare a second hard drive with all my software, data and settings so I can throw it right onto the new machine. And at least I got to the bottom of it and didn't waste more untold hours trying to reason with polite but necessarily clueless former British subjects and swapping components that had nothing to do with it. It's a tiny little copper contact problem, but it turns out to be way harder to nail down than all kinds of big crazy things involving components.

Sometimes all you can do is shake things up, m8s. Just make sure you put your foot down with Dell well inside your warranty. If it comes down to it, compose a little letter, trot off to a lawyer for his signature and shoot it off right to Dell USA. This is utterly undeniably a systemic, production run problem and if they don't act like responsible businesspeople (i.e., agree to full system swaps) they will very soon have a class action and then a well publicized recall on their hands.

I'll make this simple and straight to the point...

The 8400 is the epitomy of poor, irresponsible design from a company that is out of control.

I can list out pages of factors that add up to one of the worst products to ever burden the consumer electronics industry, but it would fill up this forum thread, and no-one would read it.

The case design / layout, for example, is a tragedy waiting to happen.

And, from reading all your posts (and I've read them all thoroughly, and many many more), the cavalier attitude of replacement / swapping parts isn't a solution or service -- quite the contrary. It's a disservice. And... ugh... man, I feel a rant comin' on.

Anyway, there's a way to break the cycle... and you can actually use some of the parts you already have (CPU's, Hard drives, memory, etc.) and do this in a way that will be cost-effective and successful for you in the "long term".

Jeanne & Richard especially (and anyone else), if you'd like to discuss options, drop me a message or catch me via IM (details in profile). I work here in the western Great Lakes (Minnesota, Wisconsin, Illinois, Indiana) finding ways / solutions for getting home office & small business as productive as possible... and lot of my clients / customers / people-I-work-with are one-time Dell customers. I've become a bit of a Dell-cracker. I just hate to see productivity shot-to-hell because a company is holding your time hostage.

Besides that, there are a number of us here on these forums who can advise and talk you through making the switch yourself. It's what we're good at!

GREAT POST !!!

This problem with the 8400 is outrageous. I'm going on 2 months working with Dell and now on my THIRD 8400. (yes... third completely different box) (in the first box: 2 ps, 2 mb, new mem, new i/o card, new hd, new power cord, all this still didn't fix the problem)

This third box has now run for 4 days, no failure... but I am unwilling to call my case closed with Dell. The first box ran for 3 months before failing, and the second ran for a week. Very obviously a factory problem, and I'm sorry to say Dell is not stepping up to the plate to make this right for all it's customers. This problem has cost me almost 2 months, now, of my employer's time. This computer is not used for recreation, home, email and surfing the internet type stuff. I'm a web designer and need to rely on my computer.

Bad news, Dell. You really to make this right !!!

Jeanne, without getting into details, you're partly right.. but it goes deeper than a factory problem. It's a design problem, and it extends from beyond the factory floor. The bulk of the problem lies in their engineering/electrical design methodology (my opinion... the beancounters have invaded the engineering office) and in their once-brilliant tech support department (beancounters have already been through it, and have moved on to the E/E design department). It's a top-down problem, and they're just too d@mned stubborn to do anything about it.

Jeanne and Max: do you think my diagnosis is correct (assuming you were patient enough to grab the gist of what I was saying in all that)? Do you agree the real cause is a tiny copper contact problem in pieces/wires never changed during tech service calls?

--
WSK

Wynton...

Your deductions are quite robust, and your observations are well-founded. I think the decisive element that is amiss here is a reluctance to step away from a Dell "authorized" part. Now, I'm not criticizing _anyone_ for not doing so... I mean, you paid for the warranty, it makes sense to use it! Besides, it's _Dell's_ problem, not yours! But, in order to the get to the absolute root cause of the problem with the 8400, I would take your research/observations a couple steps further...

1) Buy a new power supply. Put down the $50+ on an absolutely fail-safe power supply that will perform without a hitch. _Numerous_ other HWA forumdwellers here will tout and proclaim a whole mess of brands and types to get... certainly get their input. I opt for two brands when I get performance-grade power supplies -- Antec and Ultra. I've used and bought others, but they were for budget builds and for clients where I _know_ what's going on with the overall system, not taking a shot into a lake and hoping to hit a fish. Make _certain_ to get _at least_ a 400w PS... if this is a 8400, it's probably at least a 2.8Ghz and up Intel CPU in there, so definitely consider it. If my memory serves, the 8400's come with either a 300w or a 350w PS, and let me tell you -- it ain't anything to get excited about. They're basically worthless.

My guess is that the Power Supply is part of a "Bermuda Triangle" of problems in the 8400... it doesn't supply a consistent current, and is prone to fluctuations. It is designed with a hard ceiling, meaning that it's designed to address the _default_, as-it-says-on-the-manifest configuration, and that's it. You really can't add anything to the setup without severely taxing it.

This step will surely _help_, if not solve the problem. If it doesn't solve it, then we can rule the PS out of the equation, and go on to the next problem, which is...

2) Replace the motherboard. Remember how I said that Dell has two core problems, one in engineering and one in tech support? Those two problems are unified and epitomized in this motherboard. The tech support problem is easy to explain -- in any business, your most volatile cost is _people_. Yeah, the cost of raw materials fluctuates, as does energy, etc. But _people_ cost alot of money... to shelter, provide insurance for, workman's comp for, pensions for... and to _train_. Dell made the fateful decision to consolidate its tech-support human resources in India (for the most part) because you have a cheap workforce pool that is willing to be trained cheaply. I'll admit this much... we Americans have no concept of "roughing it", and trying to live on an even _average_ lifestyle. We've bloated ourselves in more ways than one, and made it nearly impossible for an industry to succeed here for any prolonged time period. I'm not trying to create a debate here... it's an incredibly complex issue, and one that I have limited knowledge of (I'm not an economist, sociologist, or politician). But back to the subject at hand, Dell took the tech support interface -- the people you, as Joe and Jane Consumer, talk to and interact with -- to India and have them trained on _one_ manual... _one_ plan of approach... _one_ course of troubleshooting. Severe mistake.

Look around the forums here and elsewhere... each motherboard is different, even among like models! And, the problems vary _region by region_! A problem with a specific motherboard in the USA will be, chances are good, different than in the UK. The _voltage_ is different, the software is different, the drivers will probably be different, the ambient climate will be different, etc. There are a _host_ of other factors! So, in order to make a single motherboard model that is A) cheap to manufacture B) easy to implement in multiple regions / cultures C) easy to build upon (don't even get me started on the assemblers and QC folks) and D) easy to make _one_ universal training & support manual for... Dell cut _alot_ of corners. And, at the back end of that manual, in what I think is a sealed container that says "Break In Case of Emergency", is a sheet that says, "Replace the offending part, starting with this..." and then lists parts and part #'s.

Then you mix in their Engineering department. Now, that's a far more involved discussion, but the gist is... the 8400's designed motherboard is an absolute joke (in my opinion). I'm not even talking from an overclocking angle, as I'm not an overclocker. There are alot of generalities taken with the 8400's motherboard, with things scaled back so as to restrict you, the consumer/user, from ever taking the machine, and its components, to a high-performance level. And yet, they throw in high-end components (CPU, memory, and the ever-elusive video card) because A) you Jane Consumer have read about "X" in a trade magazine, and if this Dell has "X" in it, it must be good!, and B) if they get them in mass quantities, it's far less costly (PC3200 RAM, for example... PC3200 can _underclock_ or scale-down to run on a 266 or 400 FSB easily, but you'd be hard pressed to get PC2100 to _overclock_ or scale-up to work with 533 or 800 FSB consistently!). But the root of the problem is that motherboard. The ball and chain. The millstone around the neck. The fly in the ointment. The pricker in your panti... uhm... enough. You get the point.

Wynton, I'm almost convinced that you're on the right track when you say its the contacts. Which contacts are you specifically talking about? I can very much see this happening, though, as today components (especially the CPU's) require more voltage (thus, more heat) coursing through them, those contacts, leads, and etchings all expand and contract. It's part of a breaking-in process. Any good overclocker will tell you that you have to take overclocking in steps, to properly familiarize and break-in the components to be able to run at the new power / voltage levels. Thing is, I think the Dell components (that motherboard) don't break in... they break _down_. Expansion / contraction and power fluctuations take place over the course of a few months, and all of the sudden... whammo!... a contact, or a gate, or a switch, or a capacitor gets "stuck"... and good luck gettin' it to right itself.

Hi Guys,

Wynton... your theory sounds viable, to me. In my first 8400 box... they changed, more than once, many components (you'll see in some of my previous posts)... your correct... they never changed out any of the wiring, OR actual power switch, itself. They did change the I/O board, but not the switch itself.

Max... I guess we could theorize from now 'till the cows come home about what exactly is ailing these junk 8400's. Your observations are well taken, believe me. I love reading the forums regarding suggestions on problem solutions, *but*... I am not in a position to dump major bucks into this junker 8400 just to make it work. Dell needs to make it right. Me, along with *many* other people have chose to do business with Dell, (for whatever reasons), and our $$ is in these machines. Dell needs to make it right by us, dontcha think? By reading your very informative post... Dell needs to hire you to F/A the Tanker 8400's ;-)

I guess I was following the forums with this problem in hopes to find where Dell might actually fess-up, and begin standing behind their reputation and fix this problem. Not their end users.

~jp