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  Re: Dispelling audio myths, the cable lie 
 
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reginald peebottom Mar 29, 2005, 07:12pm EST Reply - Quote - Report Abuse
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>> Re: Re: Dispelling audio myths, the cable lie
The author of the article has voiced what I have thought and argued since high school (and that's a fair amount of time past).

I think everyone, including the "defenders" of expensive cables, can agree that the more expensive cables is a lesson in diminishing returns. Clearly, a set of cables that you purchase for $20+ per pair are not 10x better by any objective measure than $2 cables. At best, those cables are a "little" better. I've yet to see any poster post objective measurements proving the superiority of the more expensive cables. All I've read is mostly rhetoric.

The reason that Monster Cables and other similar manufacturers exist is that they are selling an image and a mind set as much as they do cables which is why they market like hell. The placebo effect is a well proven phenomena, and if someone buys a set of monster cables believing they are better then they will hear a difference. And if that faith is strong enough, no amount of objective testing or argument is going to sway them. Moreover, once you've spent a small bundle on cables you've got a vested interest in arguing those cables were worth the money, lest the performance buyer admit that effectively they got taken (at least in terms of buying the cables for their performance characteristics).

Finally, buying these cables gives the buyer bragging rights. How many "philes" do you know that at the drop of a hat will be able to ramble off the specs of their rig with such pride and ease that you'd think they were talking about their children?



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Brendan Falvey Mar 29, 2005, 07:29pm EST Reply - Quote - Report Abuse
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Edited: Mar 29, 2005, 07:31pm EST

 
>> Re: Re: Dispelling audio myths, the cable lie
Welding cables would be a good substitue large crossection quality cable again not pretty but functional. Ensure you are paying for copper not the advertising execs business lunch. Good luck to the sales execs if people will pay for perception

OCGW Mar 29, 2005, 08:30pm EST Reply - Quote - Report Abuse
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>> Re: Re: Dispelling audio myths, the cable lie
Monster Cable isn't really a "expensive brand", they are just competently manufactured cable @ a small premium

While you don't see a "night, & day" difference between $2000USD cables & $20USD cables, $2USD cables that come in the box for free will definitely "screw up" your picture, & sound

I have had a lot of ppl like you thinking we are deluding ourselves into thinking that our systems sound, & look better than they really are

Invariably when I invite them over to see for themselves, THEY DON'T WANT TO GO HOME

OCGW

PEACE

wizard B Mar 29, 2005, 11:03pm EST Reply - Quote - Report Abuse
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>> Re: Re: Dispelling audio myths, the cable lie
to anybody that thinks expensive cabling makes you stereo sound better;I have just for you a special offer like no other for the mere price of $4000.00 dollars i have a mirror that will make you more handsome to all that that see you and i also have a drink that will attract beautiful women to you.
reply to YourSoTotally StupidICantBelieveIt@moron.com

Thermalfreak Mar 30, 2005, 12:36am EST Reply - Quote - Report Abuse
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>> Re: Re: Dispelling audio myths, the cable lie
Audio....zz...Technica.......<Grumble>......Creative........<mumble>.......wish they....<Zzzz>.....made cables......<nooo>......

Ive snapped:
An xbox360 and a 12" iBook....
And a kawasaki er-6n to mod instead
Dj E Mar 30, 2005, 01:32am EST Reply - Quote - Report Abuse
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>> Re: Re: Dispelling audio myths, the cable lie
Ok, for you non believers, your just jealous because your gear sucks and pockets are thin.

The real test for these high-prices cables is running an analog composite video feed to a HDTV. The cheap cables look like crap, the expensive ones look really good.

and for the record books, 10 to 15 percent of what you spent on you gear is the additional amount that you should spend on cables.

Thermalfreak Mar 30, 2005, 03:18am EST Reply - Quote - Report Abuse
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Edited: Mar 30, 2005, 03:26am EST

 
>> Re: Re: Dispelling audio myths, the cable lie
For all you non believers! Its time to be healed!

Dude were talking bout audio quality here....bad video cabling has always been a problem and of course you wanna proper quality cables that make the most of what you have....but whats that got to do with buying 3000 dollar cables to listen to audio?

"The cheap cables look like crap, the expensive ones look really good." - I agree all that packaging advertising and funky colours must look real nice compared to black and gold....

jealous? maybe were jealous of the money you spent but not what you spend it on or what youve bought cuz we dont find any real difference (except of course the funky colours round the back of your system)

Ive snapped:
An xbox360 and a 12" iBook....
And a kawasaki er-6n to mod instead
OCGW Mar 30, 2005, 03:32am EST Reply - Quote - Report Abuse
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Edited: Mar 30, 2005, 03:34am EST

 
>> Re: Re: Dispelling audio myths, the cable lie
Yo' Thermalfreak, I just plunked down the cash for the new pretty Thermatake heat spreaders w/ the 8 display modes

http://www.newegg.com/app/Showimage.asp?image=35-116-014-02.jp...014-01.jpg

So I can't talk about ppl w/ pretty cables, cause it might make me a hipocrate

OCGW

PEACE

Bruce Bettridge Mar 30, 2005, 04:44am EST Reply - Quote - Report Abuse
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>> Re: Re: Dispelling audio myths, the cable lie
Sander, i have waited YEARS for a post like this.

I OWN (and not in the online sense) a cable manufacturing company in China and we make a wide variety of cable for the electronics industry for people like HP, IBM, Dell, most of their CEMs and a load of people in between in many different markets. I have engineers that work for me with Masters and every kind of qualification under the sun, and we as a company are constantly amused by what our customers ask for in a cable.

Lets take the 'Monster' variety first. A classic scam is the scart cable, we have all been in stores and at least heard the sales dweeb sell a great new 42" plasma/21" TV to some poor schmuck and round it off with the 'cable pitch', 'this is the best you can have, o2 free, double shielded, 24 carat gold....' etc, makes me die. Yes spend $100 on a sub $1 cable (and that is what the likes of us sell it to Monster for), alternatively, give me $50 and i will fed ex you one. Look at the back of your spanking new plasma, have a look at the scart socket....you see any gold there?, nope, not a trace, not even gold flash, it doesn't need it, neither does your 'monster'. Like SS said, it's digital, there is very little to go wrong, it will have to be good for about 20 insertion cycle in it's life time, it does not need to be Mil Spec. This is just one example of the rampant Bull that surrounds cables. The reason is, the retailers have wised up to the fact that they make jack on the main product, we are getting smarter about the extended warranty scam, and they can make more money on a cable sale than on anything else as a percentage (in fact on the $99 Monster, they may make more clear profit than on the Plasma) Simply put, if it has the standard shield, and the right pins connected, you have a winner. And these cables do roll out of my plant at sub $ prices in most cases. And if any of you think that any retail cable is 'researched and specd for performance' then you are living in a dream. These guys come to the cable factories in asia (and they are all made there, check out a monster or geek box and you will see 'packaged in the USA', that means put in a box, not made) and there first target is make it cheap, their second is make it look expensive. Thats it. There is no more.

This is just one example, but there are a million others in every sector, prime examples of poor or over engineering made by designers who have no idea what their product does (IBM, i am talking to you here), engineers who are waiting for retirement and are given cable for a 'make over' (Compaq was good at that), or companies with so few engineers that they will end up asking us to design stuff for them (how you doing Dell?)

Cables is a simple industry people. You extrude it, you coat it, you terminate it. That about sums it up, it is not rocket science by any stretch of the imagination. If a 'basic' cable meets the design criteria and the spec for the job in hand then no manner of cosmetics, enhancements or window dressing is going to change that fact. I know audiophiles who say different (my accountant for one) but these are the kind of people wh drop a couple of grand to get the right output in sound spectrums that only a dog can hear and then convince themselves that it is money well spent. Yes there is a diference between a $100 set up and a $3000 rig, you would expect it, but can you really say that a Linn or similar set up for $100,000 really does sound soo much better than a cheaper Denon?

As you said Sander, computers are easy. You test them to a benchmark and print the results, there is little of a subjective nature involved, but who the A/V sector has got away with some of the scams they have been running for so long really is a triumph of style over content.

God, that feels better.

If you ever want to know more of the commercial horrors that are conducted by some of the big retailers i am working on enough to fill a book for my retirement....don't even get me started on some of the UK retailers.

Thermalfreak Mar 30, 2005, 04:56am EST Reply - Quote - Report Abuse
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>> Re: Re: Dispelling audio myths, the cable lie
Lol those things are ok if you got the case to go with em....i dont see how it might make you a hypocrite....im just poking fun at the guys bad grammar and saying the cables look much better than cheap ones....then again you paid for those things cuz they look good and do their basic job.....now if you found pretty cables (or heatspreaders) that costed ten times as much....and were a little bit better at colling your ram....but were 'premium'....then what?

Ive snapped:
An xbox360 and a 12" iBook....
And a kawasaki er-6n to mod instead
OCGW Mar 30, 2005, 05:57pm EST Reply - Quote - Report Abuse
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Edited: Mar 30, 2005, 05:58pm EST

 
>> Re: Re: Dispelling audio myths, the cable lie
Well, you know I got Thermaltake comin' outta' my 4$$ just like you

I make my wife wear Thermaltake panties to bed

I am upgrading from 1GB Kingston Value Ram DDR333 w/ 3.0 latency to 1GB Corsair Select DDR400 w/ 2.5 latency

& I have the Tt 40mm active cooling kit frag taped (but good) to the Kingston memory, so it is going into my "backup", "RED DRAGON" which is going from 512mb to 1GB DDR333

OCGW

PEACE

Benj Tweedle Mar 30, 2005, 10:55pm EST Reply - Quote - Report Abuse
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>> Re: Re: Dispelling audio myths, the cable lie
The Best cable for those who want quality at a low price is 12 AWG Lamp cord like the stuff used outside in the little lights that light footpaths Stuff works great for the trained ear

14AWG foor the aging educated ear
16 AWG for ppl that don't listen well
18-20 AWG For ppl with stupid ears who can't tell the diffrence between stereo and mono

OCGW Mar 30, 2005, 11:09pm EST Reply - Quote - Report Abuse
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Edited: Mar 30, 2005, 11:10pm EST

 
>> Re: Re: Dispelling audio myths, the cable lie
I like this last poster

If it ain't 12AWG it don't go on my speakers

The ground wire from my satelite dish is 10GA, wonder if it would make good speaker wire?

OCGW

PEACE

phil Mar 30, 2005, 11:40pm EST Reply - Quote - Report Abuse
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Edited: Mar 30, 2005, 11:41pm EST

 
>> Re: Re: Dispelling audio myths, the cable lie
LMAO.. dont know OCGW.. give it a try..

ok folks.. money talks.. and i didnt spen $4 on cables to hook up my B&Ws.. if i spend $30 000 on 4 speakers.. im not cheaping out on cables.. you know??

ok.. so some stuff out there is overpriced... but if your not tone deaf you should be willing to fork out the extra ca$h when you buy a HIGH-end audio system

EDIT OGWC>OCGW.. hmm what the heck was i smoking? oops sorry :)

---
can't access HWA unless I use a proxy... lol

pfft ..f**k that! (almost sounds like work)
OCGW Mar 31, 2005, 01:27am EST Reply - Quote - Report Abuse
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>> Re: Re: Dispelling audio myths, the cable lie
B&W's niiiice Phil, what do you have, 800 series? My budget forced me to be a little more "utilitarian"

I have $3500USD in Cerwin-vega's in my "main theater"

& a $1000USD pair of Infiniti's in my living room, (1) day I am going to "fork out" 2-3K for those Martin Logans I want

What are you driving those B&W's with?, I use NAD in the living room, & Adcom in the theater

I have a friend with a full Meridian/Krell system, now some ppl really think he is "nuts"

In the final analysis, what you do w/ your money is your own business, as long as your children have "clean cloth's on the their backs, & plenty of food on the table"

Remember, you can't take it w/ you!

OCGW

PEACE

Ian Yeoh Mar 31, 2005, 09:15am EST Reply - Quote - Report Abuse
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>> Dispelling audio myths, the cable lie
This got me so hot and bothered that I had to register! This is my first post :)

I believe the common issue is that those who don't appear to hear differences do most of their blind testing on equipment that cannot show the differences. All cables, no matter how expensive, (and yes there are silver speaker cables that cost upwards of $8K per meter pair, and you'll probably need four pairs for the Wilson Audio WAMM) produce some form of coloration. Transparent sounding cables and transducers are part of an audio nirvana that has not yet been attained.

I am not going to try to convince this crowd that there are massive differences between cables to this crowd, and to tell you what to listen for. This is a community that is engrossed with their audigy 2zs/4 pros and 7 speaker klipsch/gigawork systems. The concept of audio fidelity to an average teenager is listening to a mp3 of 50 cent on an iPod through some Bose/Koss headphones.

OK. I'm sorry. I do own all the brands that I slammed and all those are good equipment for their price. I do use Monster Cable for my average electronics, and that is also good for the price, except that Monster Cable products generally throw a dark veil over everything, because of the average consumer's perception that boosted upper mid bass sounds "powerful." That's why we have those blasted "loudness" buttons on all the darn Japanese electronics.

I do my audio listening on Krell electronics and a Martin Logan transducer system (wish they were Statements, but they are not). No, its not home theatre, just two channels but bi-amped and with monoblocks :) I use Transparent Audio interconnects and MIT reference speaker cable (and that isn't made in the university lab for those who don't know :) I pay attention to cables because audio purity is more than a hobby. It is a passion. I spend hours listening to the same piece of music, concentrating, listening for the finest, most subtle details. The average consumer doesn't do that, and hence doesn't need multi thousand dollar cables. But please don't slam what is precious to me.

How would you feel if I were to unleash the average housewife, who will tell you flat in your face that there are no visual differences between NVidia, ATI or Matrox? They all look the same don't they? The game can be played with a 6200 right? Then why do you need to spend $1500 on two 6800 Ultra Extreme video cards??


Thermalfreak Mar 31, 2005, 11:00am EST Reply - Quote - Report Abuse
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>> Re: Re: Dispelling audio myths, the cable lie
Well heres my reply to my average housewife:

Well look heres the game at 10 fps and the game at 60fps with a 6600gt....see how i suck...get p**sed and refuse to work the lawn while here with 60 fps im happy ill gladly go and do the shopping for you and ill do more stuff with you rather than try non stop to overclock or mod that 6200 into sumphin acceptable....

the only problem is that there is no definite or standard way to benchmark audio quality due to different cables and that means you cant find a proper compromise between that hundred dollar card/cable and that thousand dollar card/cable

Ive snapped:
An xbox360 and a 12" iBook....
And a kawasaki er-6n to mod instead
Ian Yeoh Mar 31, 2005, 05:35pm EST Reply - Quote - Report Abuse
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>> Dispelling audio myths, the cable lie
Just as a reply to Sander, not only can you hear differences between different brands of cables, you can also hear between different grades of cable within each brand. Consider what sort of equipment is used for a double blind test. Listening to someone else's system in someone else's home, I wouldn't be able to tell you which brands of cable are being used, but i sure would be able to tell you whether different cables are being switched. For example, there are quite a few audiophile brands that have cables at outrageous prices. When you switch between the cables, I can't tell you precisely which brand is being used, but I sure can tell you which cable I would personally prefer within the first 30 seconds of hearing.

In my home and with my system and using my ears, I sure know which cables I prefer. Over the years, I have accumulated several sets of speaker cables, and I sure can tell if you switch the cables on my speakers. The reaction will be unequivocal. If you were to put Monster Cable or Radio Shack cable on my Martin Logans, they will sound downright like crap. And the market value of my audio system will immediately depreciate by a factor of five to ten times.

Its just a plain lie that one cannot hear aural differences between different cables. Even my most uninitiated friends have been put through the test on my system in my home. Again, this is my system, my home, my ears. I shouldn't really care if someone else can't hear any differences, but this topic really irks me and gets my goat.

And that do-it-yourself subwoofer thing that you wrote.. you won't be putting Velodyne out of business anytime soon. No disrespect to you intended, but maybe you should concentrate on PCs. The stuff you wrote on the Asus SLI motherboard is first class.

phil Mar 31, 2005, 08:28pm EST Reply - Quote - Report Abuse
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>> Re: Re: Dispelling audio myths, the cable lie
OCGW

my bowers & wilkins
2xnautilus 802d's
1xHTMD1 centre
2xASW875
4xSignature SCM

they're being put under and over the bar and being hooked with the pair of 45"sharps you talked me into buying after the carpenter is done making dust in the basement,, and actually i'm looking for something new to drive them (any suggestions? your taste seems to be as deep as my pocket book.. lmao) err.. well the girl will be buying .. my account is dry at the moment :)

anyways.. you'll have to get you @$$ this far north and check it all out.. july 1st canada day.. 300people should be fun :)




---
can't access HWA unless I use a proxy... lol

pfft ..f**k that! (almost sounds like work)
OCGW Mar 31, 2005, 08:49pm EST Reply - Quote - Report Abuse
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Edited: Mar 31, 2005, 08:50pm EST

 
>> Re: Re: Dispelling audio myths, the cable lie
Sure, love to drop by, how far north again Phil?

You ever check out Accuphase, or Macintosh amps?

I am partial to Marantz myself

OCGW

PEACE



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