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  Re: Intelís East Fork, Microsoft Vista, satisfying unbridled greed? 
 
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Michael A. Aug 23, 2005, 07:09pm EDT Reply - Quote - Report Abuse
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That's all the proof I need right there to stick with Windows XP and AMD.


Michael A.
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FingerMeElmo87 Aug 23, 2005, 08:48pm EDT Reply - Quote - Report Abuse
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>> Re: Re: Intelís East Fork, Microsoft Vista, satisfying unbridled greed?
LMAO. intel and micrsoft remind of cheddar bob. the character in 8-mile who shot himself in the leg with his own gun. sure micrsoft and intel have the tools to take over the entire personal computer industry but with this recent implemintation of this BULLSHI* that is DRM into the software of vista and the hardware of the pentium, they have just royally screwed themselves just like cheddar bob did. i do not know a single person in the world that does not have a single mp3 file on there hdd. once every one realizes what these idiots are up to Dell and every other computer manufacture will adopt AMD as there flagship cpu because these chips wont have the hardware side of the total DRM equation. either that or they're goning to invest there money in apple. either way the 2 most dominant sources in the computer industry has just has just dont the same dumba** thing that cheddar bob did; shot themselves in there own leg. lmao............Fu****g idiots.

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David Aug 23, 2005, 09:07pm EDT Reply - Quote - Report Abuse
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Edited: Aug 23, 2005, 09:08pm EDT

 
>> Re: Re: Intelís East Fork, Microsoft Vista, satisfying unbridled greed?
Surely thats a "worst case scenario" Sander was talking about, something that bad wouldnt rub with anyone. Im all for protecting copyrighted material...........just not to the extreme like that.

Where do AMD stand on this subject? anyone?

Can i assume Apple are in on it too with them taking intel CPU's now?


David.


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Lawrence O. Wilson Aug 23, 2005, 09:25pm EDT Reply - Quote - Report Abuse
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>> Re: Re: Intelís East Fork, Microsoft Vista, satisfying unbridled greed?
Greed or not Greed!
Fact, the music industry is creating the music, e movie industry is creating the movies! The end products are theirs. And no one has the right to take anyone else property! So, you sell cars at a rip off price. I have the TECH to make keys that will allow me to take a car off of you care lot. Now you are ready to call the police. But sir, that isn't fair, you charge to much for your car, all of you car dealers are just trying to keep me from taking any car off of any lot. You think that you can charge me what ever price you want to and I have to pay it. No sir, not as log as I have my car key that will let me drive away with out paying!

Bottom line - If it is not yours, then taking it without the owners permission is THEFT. Or, because Bill Gates has hundreds of millions and I get on 60K a year, I will just go take what I want from his house while he is not home?? He has the PC market to himself, billions inhe bank, I'll just take some because all of his money shouldbe available to the masses!

All of us will tell anyone what we are doing if it is not immorale or illegal. If you believe it is right to download music and films and copy the content of either - then do it and tell the owners!



Jeremy Miller Aug 23, 2005, 11:43pm EDT Reply - Quote - Report Abuse
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>> Re: Re: Intelís East Fork, Microsoft Vista, satisfying unbridled greed?
Ahh but how about an analogy to buying a house. Once I buy a house, I am entitled to making duplicate keys. It is no business of the contractor, builders, or the city as to who I give keys to. If I want my brother, neighbor, and boss to have a key, I have the right to do that. If I want to sell my house at a later time, or rent it, I have the right to do so. What Intel and Microsoft are potentially restricting my rights. I understand that I do not own the rights to a DVD I might buy or a MP3 single I might download, but if I purchase that MP3, don't I have the right to listen to it whether it is on my computer or my iPod or on a CD I burn? What if my drive fails? Do I have to buy it again because the DRM protection imposed wouldn't allow me to back it up? I understand that I could also copy that MP3 and distribute it to friends, but there is precident with Beta MAX (Sony) and being able to tape television.

I would move to AMD in a heartbeat if Intel actually imposed on my ability to enjoy music and/or videos. I'm not condoning illegal music downloads, I just want fair use of music that I have paid for.

Joseph Perkins Aug 24, 2005, 12:33am EDT Reply - Quote - Report Abuse
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>> Re: Re: Intelís East Fork, Microsoft Vista, satisfying unbridled greed?
To: Lawrence O. Wilson

Sorry. That's a very flawed argument.

The real anology to use with DRM is that of cars, bought by citizens and taken home. Now the car maker feels you drive too recklessly with their cars and, by remote control, activates a governer in your car so it will not go over 45 MPH. Then feels you drive too much for trivial reasons and activates nother remote control feature and your car only activates between 7 am and 9 am and between 5 pm to 7pm.

I do not care what the content owner feels or wants once the content is in my hands and safely in my home. Content Protection stops at my front door and can only legally prevent it from leaving again.

If he wants it to be played only once, say so at the time of purchase.. of course, then no one will buy the discs and rental places won't either.

Either way, either they repeal the HRRA or stop with this sort of bad idea.

Joe Perkins

Lawrence O. Wilson Aug 24, 2005, 03:26am EDT Reply - Quote - Report Abuse
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>> Re: Re: Intelís East Fork, Microsoft Vista, satisfying unbridled greed?
Mr. Jeremy Miller, you are right about what you are saying about you house but in all of the things that you said you have the right to do, you did not say anything about building a copy of your house for others to use on lands that you have not purchased.

The bottom line is that you may not become a distributer of some one else property unless they give you that right. Because you by a copy does not make you the owner of the material with the right to become a distributer. The copy is for the person that brought it only!

Actually, when it comes down to it - we are talking about is Integrity, ethics, moral values. Doing to others what we want done to us! It is so sad that so many are willing to sell their integrity for a buck! We see it in our government, political leaders, corporations, the work place, the misleading TV ads, you name it. GREED! GREED! GREED! All I can get first, all I can get before you can get some, orther wise, all I can cheat you out of. And, I have a right to what is yours, wheater you like it or not.

If you think the companies are not doing the right thing, then don't buy their product!

Tell you what, put your credit card number into this forum. I am going to make only one copy for myself. I promise not to share it with anyone else. And I will only use it one time. I guess you don't like that!

Wilson

Lawrence O. Wilson Aug 24, 2005, 03:44am EDT Reply - Quote - Report Abuse
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>> Re: Re: Intelís East Fork, Microsoft Vista, satisfying unbridled greed?
Mr. Joseph Perkins,

Please provide me with a source where I can view the statements you made is your response! I have not ever read anything about how many times a may view a movie ro play a CD that I have paid for. I do know that softeare firms do not want me to buy software and then load it on tow or more different machines in my home or where ever. I and everyone knows that they sell one copy of software for one machine period!

Are you one of those persons that copy software to more than one machine. Have you made CD for your friends? Are these proposed rules addressed to you?

Mike Burdett Aug 24, 2005, 04:50am EDT Reply - Quote - Report Abuse
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>> Re: Re: Intelís East Fork, Microsoft Vista, satisfying unbridled greed?
Lawrence Wilson,

Surely even you can see the point that it will also be stopping people from making backups for personal use, copying cd's for use in car (dont want the original getting scratched) making backups in case something happens to the original, once you pay for something you own it and it is yours to do with as you will, why did they make DVD Writers and CD writers so legally available if they are not be used, what if you paid a lot of money for some software or something and it got damaged and no longer worked, you have no backup of the software because it is "immoral" so would you be happy to pay for the software again? i think that it is unfair for someone to try and control how i use something i have paid for, and if they dont want people making copies or downloading their music - why make it so expensive? £15 for a cd evryone knows that the disc is only worth £0.30 fair enough a few quid towards the makers but at least £10 profit off every CD they sell (that where the GREED is)

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Harrison Someone Aug 24, 2005, 05:06am EDT Reply - Quote - Report Abuse
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>> Re: Re: Intelís East Fork, Microsoft Vista, satisfying unbridled greed?
Here's a great example (i hope >_>)

You go out, and buy yourself a little copy of Windows XP.
You install it on your system, you're having a jolly good time.
You go through the registration process and have your Windows XP cd-key registered on a server
Something bad happens to your computer...viruses, spyware, registry malfunction...drive failure...w/e!
You format or replace the HDD
You go reinstall windows, while still having a "Jolly good time"
You go through the registration process, type in your cd-key...what's this? the cd-key you've typed in has already been registered, if you feel this was an error, please contact Microsoft...etc...etc. We are now disabling your windows software until a proper cd-key has been provided.

I dunno if Windows does this yet, but I know plenty of games that do.
Ok, so you call microsoft and explain it to them. You think they'll believe you? no...they won't XD

Same thing applys to music, it gets registered to the HDD, but cannot play on any other computer. Sooo...what if you have an I-Pod, or PSP, or laptop? Then you gotta go back to the site and get the rights to use it 2x? That's pretty stupid...I mean...who wants the right to use the same music file...2x?

Also, not being able to convert to MP3 is stupid...I mean...shouldn't we strive to bring things into the present? Mp3 files are small, nice, and the most used file type...not being able to convert from wma (or w/e else) to mp3 would kill I-Pods quickly...we might even be able to talk about class action suits.

If Microsoft is truly planning on implementing this technology, I'm sticking with XP. If Intel is truly planning on implementing this technology...screw them, AMDs are currently faster anyways.

David Aug 24, 2005, 08:26am EDT Reply - Quote - Report Abuse
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>> Re: Re: Intelís East Fork, Microsoft Vista, satisfying unbridled greed?
Im still in the boat of "it cant be that bad", sure its going to be a pain in the arse but i dont think intel/microsoft would implement it in the way Sander spoke of in his article. It would just be way too bad for business especially when theres an alterative in AMD/Linux that gets around it all.

Anyway, surely if you have a software/hardware combo to restrict illegal uses then surely the same hardware could be used in some way to protect us legitimate customers? Maybee?.

I just grabbed this from Xbit labs regarding intels "east fork"

"The package will be designed for ďdigital homeĒ PCs, which shuttle music and movies around the home and can store TV shows digitally,Ē

Paints a slightly different picture doesnt it.......


David.

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Bob Cooper Aug 24, 2005, 10:27am EDT Reply - Quote - Report Abuse
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>> Re: Re: Intelís East Fork, Microsoft Vista, satisfying unbridled greed?
Hang-on to XP? I think you alreadly let the fox into the hen-house. Try windows 2000. Better yet, Linux. And watch out for Dx9?

Dave McLain Aug 24, 2005, 11:17am EDT Reply - Quote - Report Abuse
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>> You Don't OWN the music, you just buy the right to USE the material
This is something most people fail to realize. When they buy a CD they are NOT BUYING THE MUSIC. They are only paying for the right to listen to the music, BIG difference.... This right is something that should be used responsibly or it can be revoked..



Mike Burdett Aug 24, 2005, 11:44am EDT Reply - Quote - Report Abuse
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>> Re: Re: Intelís East Fork, Microsoft Vista, satisfying unbridled greed?
if you buy a dvd or a cd i think you will find that legally you are entitled to make backups for personal use, it only becomes illegal misuse when you start distributing and selling the copies you have made, so therefore anything on a disc you buy is yours to use as you will, they just own the rights to sell and distribute

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FingerMeElmo87 Aug 24, 2005, 02:47pm EDT Reply - Quote - Report Abuse
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>> Re: Re: Intelís East Fork, Microsoft Vista, satisfying unbridled greed?
if you are not allowed to do something as insignificant as ripping a single cd to your computer for backup purpose then thats retarded. period. now if they want to stop you from exporting that information to programs such as kazaa and limewire then thats perfectly understandable because thats how those companies lose money. but not allowing the individual consumer to backup there cd to the computer for any reason is dumb.

right now i have 1800 tracks of legitament music that i've purchased over the years on my computer. i dont condone using file sharing programs to pirate music unless that artist or label has given there express consent to do so. i think that pirating music is FU**** up and that no one should do it. any one who does that type of shi* are bastards. i dont do that. i back my music up on my computer for convenence. really who like insert a cd into there computer to listen to that one track that they like and then have to change it to listen to another. thats dumb. i back my media up for convenence and so i can make compilation cds for myself. nothin more nothing less. preventing the media from being exported to file sharing programs is a great idea and i support that function completely but not letting them backup the media at all is ridiculous.


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Albert Crocker Aug 24, 2005, 07:00pm EDT Reply - Quote - Report Abuse
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>> Re: Re: Intelís East Fork, Microsoft Vista, satisfying unbridled greed?
Yes, we'll have to keep our current systems as-is when Vista comes out. When the time comes, put Vista on a new PC and don't let Microsoft put any updates on your older XP PC until you know what those updates do.

The really troubling issue, however, is NEW MEDIA CONTENT. This scheme between the publishers and M$Intel is really designed with the future in mind more than any thing else. The MPAA is more concerned with the wholesale piracy in Asia than with BitTorrent, though they are happy to whack every mole that pops up. They have essentially drawn a line in the sand and said, "unless we can absolutely trust that our IP cannot be used in a manner we don't approve of, then we will not release it!" They know that enough people will want that content that they will be willing to jump though the DRM hoops in order to get it. There will come a time when movies and music will be released only on media that works with M$Intel's DRM. We'll still be able to exercise our Fair Use rights on older (current) media, even if it takes enterprising code liberators to help, but the industry's goal is to make it impossible with their newer media, esp. High Def content.

If any draconian DRM scheme actually gets significant market penetration -- if Congress and/or the Courts refuse to step in and codify our Fair Use rights, for example -- then the whole landscape will change. We will adapt, however, as we always have. After all, we expect the publishers to adapt to the "Internet Age." We like to lambaste them for sticking with their "outdated" business model as gatekeepers when all the content is easily manipulated 1's and 0's. We basically told them to "adapt" themselves out of business, as so many people worldwide freely copied and shared millions of songs and movies that used to cost money...

But instead, they have chosen to adapt to the Internet Age by stipulating that all newly manufactured computers be designed from the ground up to 'rectify' that horrible mistake of letting 1's and 0's be so easily manipulated in the first place. (A task that would have been impossible without the convenient existence of a monopoly over new PCs -- M$Intel -- willing to ally with them.)

Clearly, a lot of people are extending the bounds of "Fair Use" beyond all recognition with their activities. The publishers therefore feel that their only recourse is eliminating that gray area of consumer discretion entirely, since they cannot trust consumers to stay within the bounds of Fair Use principles. Cheap broadband + cheap DVD burners + an attitude that "information is free" = a nightmare for IP holders. At this point, the publishers have set up an incredibly adversarial relationship with consumers. I don't really know which side is to blame more for it, though. Abuse can be easily seen on either side. If you think about it, this new situation is hardly unexpected. The first time I ever logged on to the original Napster, I thought to myself, "I can really get all these songs for free? No strings attached? Surely this can't last."

Duh.

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Will Olson II Aug 24, 2005, 10:32pm EDT Reply - Quote - Report Abuse
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>> Re: Re: Intelís East Fork, Microsoft Vista, satisfying unbridled greed?
Sander isnt talking about DL music illegally or movies illegally. He is talking about the idea of being able to buy a CD and copying that music to your MP3 player as a back up so you dont ruine your new CD. Or backing your movie up to a disk or HDD so you dont ruin your new movie. And this is all legit. I would hate the idea of them making it illegal to copy CDs to an MP3 player. Come on, protecting the rights of artists is great but the movie and music industry are going to great and rediculous extremes to protect their bottom line, and its inhibiting people who do perfectly moral things to contiue.

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Bob Cooper Aug 24, 2005, 11:12pm EDT Reply - Quote - Report Abuse
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>> Re: Re: Intelís East Fork, Microsoft Vista, satisfying unbridled greed?
As for hanging on to your XP system and not accepting any MS updates since sooner or later, the "next update" will have the new DRM planned for Vista (or whatever the next version is called).

Have you considered that within a year or two, MS will announce they no longer support XP service pack xyz. Those dates have already come and gone with NT4, NT3.5x, win95, win3.x, DOSx. There not very far off with win98se, and win2000. But with XP there IS A DIFFERENCE. With the versions of Windows I just mentioned you can still install from your MS media. Not so with XP, if you change your NIC or mother board, even hard drive, doesn't XP already refuse to boot until you call MS, get a new key, then enter that new key? What will you do when MS no longer answers the phone at the XP support numbers? Where will you get that key?


Albert Crocker Aug 25, 2005, 01:38am EDT Reply - Quote - Report Abuse
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>> Re: Re: Intelís East Fork, Microsoft Vista, satisfying unbridled greed?
@ Bob Cooper,

Yeah, I wasn't thinking that through too well... Time to buy me a copy of Win2K before it's too late I guess!

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Albert Crocker Aug 25, 2005, 02:04am EDT Reply - Quote - Report Abuse
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>> Re: Re: Intelís East Fork, Microsoft Vista, satisfying unbridled greed?
<<<< Sander isnt talking about DL music illegally or movies illegally. >>>>

@ Will Olsen,

I know that the issue Sander is talking about is the abridgment of our Fair Use rights. But what I am saying is that the publishers can no longer rely on consumers to stay within the boundaries of Fair Use. Things just aren't the same as they were back when people were making cassette tapes off FM radio. The sheer level of IP theft today is shocking when compared to pre-Internet times.

We do have rights, this is true. Congress really needs to officially codify our Fair Use rights, unambiguously, so that this DRM scheme must comply with the law and allow us to make personal back-up copies and/or other uses that fall under the Fair Use doctrine. But as long as the situation is "up in the air" as it is now, then publishers only have to look at the activities on Kazaa, eDonkey, BT, LimeWire, etc., etc., to see that too many people are willing to go WAY beyond their Fair Use rights whenever they get the opportunity. So they are seeking to close that opportunity. Yes, the industry is greedy for more money, as always. But the other side of the issue is that a LARGE number of consumers are all too willing to flat-out steal whatever they can if it's convenient to do so (and P2P apps are made to meet the demand for convenient acquisition of copyrighted material). This is the source of the friction. I believe Sander is only choosing to look at one side of this issue, as if the publishers have no right to try and retain control over their IP. Anyone looking at the current file-sharing situation can see plainly that it cannot continue like this for long. The people who believe that "everything should be free" are -- well -- short-sighted, to put it charitably. And those of us who just want to make use of new technology and exercise our *legal* rights are the ones that will be screwed over this. The fault lies on both sides: the industry for choosing to be cavalier with our rights in order to protect their bottom line, and the IP thieves (of which there are legion) who are forcing the publishers' hand.

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Michel Merlin Aug 25, 2005, 10:15am EDT Reply - Quote - Report Abuse
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>> The USER is often the author!
Lawrence O. Wilson Tue 23 Aug 2005 21:25: ę Fact, the music industry is creating the music, e movie industry is creating the movies! Ľ

They are creating *some* music and movies, not *the* music and movies!

Back from Vietnam, I composed my 980 photos into a diaporama on CD, of which I sent 50 copies to the 50 fellows in the group. The photos' author was me. The diapo's author was me. I nevertheless paid 50 times the tax that French gov (and European may be) placed over virgin medias, allegedly to repay the authors, damaged by CD copies. But none gave me back a cent of that money.

When I recorded on CD my son playing Mozart on a century-old low-end Muller piano, I also paid that tax. But who was the damaged author: Mozart? Muller? My son? Me? None of those: again, the money was taken FROM me, and went to SACEM (i.e. French RIAA).

Now I guess the current scheme (ViiV, HDCP, MOCP alias Microsoft Output Content Protection, the new name for infamous Palladium) is also going to "protect" me from watching my own works on my own PC or television set, unless I pay another time for the "damaged authors".

If those organizations were really at protecting legit author- and copy- rights, they would certainly find other ways - the first of which being to put prices at their honest level, which is dramatically lower than anything we are seeing so far.

Paris, Thu 25 Aug 2005 16:15:10 +0200


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