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  Re: Slander Sander? A reply to ATI 
 
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Thermalfreak Sep 19, 2005, 08:04am EDT Reply - Quote - Report Abuse
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now if only all of our flame wars were like this and fought out with this kind of proper reasosning and lack of slang.... :)


Ive snapped:
An xbox360 and a 12" iBook....
And a kawasaki er-6n to mod instead
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Dublin_Gunner Sep 19, 2005, 08:14am EDT Reply - Quote - Report Abuse
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Edited: Sep 19, 2005, 08:39am EDT

 
>> Re: Re: Slander Sander? A reply to ATI
I say 'fair play' Sander. That article can have no other effect than show you in a good light.

I think we all know who the 'victim' is here. (for want of a better word)

This all seems very deceitful from ATI, and I really hope everyone concerned can get over this childish hurdle, and start speaking on the same wavelength again. It seems Andrej is the one doing the 'cherry picking', at least with regard to information he decides to throw out to the public domain.

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Jason Silverman Sep 19, 2005, 10:10am EDT Reply - Quote - Report Abuse
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>> Re: Re: Slander Sander? A reply to ATI
Sander, that could very well be the best worded reply I have ever seen on any forum to an all out smear campaign by a manufacturer (haven't seen that many tbh). You stuck it to mr. Bania and took the ground right out from under every one of his comments and proved he lied time and time again.You've shown, as you've shown before, that you always will go for the truth, no matter the consequences. Shame on ATI for starting a smear campaign and shame on mr. Bania for being such a lying, patronizing bastard.

Keep up the good work,

---
Jason Silverman

AlanOne Sep 19, 2005, 11:48am EDT Reply - Quote - Report Abuse
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>> Re: Slander Sander? A reply to ATI
Sander, your articles concerning the R520 & Crossfire products from ATI are clearly "speculative" in nature and are not concrete, so ATI need not complain or cut you off. Every article I have read on this site is very informative, and impartial in the reviews, becnchmarks, etc. And as a direct result of this site and the various forums, I have been able to make many, many worthwhile desisions concerning my purchasing and computing needs, all thanks to you. So let ATI eat cake! My advice, nuzzle up to a few nVidia execs. ;)

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Thermalfreak Sep 19, 2005, 12:22pm EDT Reply - Quote - Report Abuse
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>> Re: Re: Slander Sander? A reply to ATI
its obvious ati is simply trying to cut off everyone they are not 100% sure will bring a straightfoward positive boost to their company and likewise with any news, they dont want any rumors that the prduct will be bad because up till now it has been their super duper 32 pipe monster thats supposed to whup everythings ass....and an average joe who would buy the card from, word of ear by its performance would be just as likely to no be dissuaded by hearing about sanders article....

Ive snapped:
An xbox360 and a 12" iBook....
And a kawasaki er-6n to mod instead
A_Pickle Sep 19, 2005, 12:26pm EDT Reply - Quote - Report Abuse
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>> Re: Re: Slander Sander? A reply to ATI
I respectfully disagree.

I've seen the article all too many times, and it lacks certain necessities that it should have had before anything was done.

- There were no test system specifications.
- There was a distinct tone of malice towards ATI in your opening statement
- The relative results of other cards in that benchmark were far astray what other review sites have posted.

Frankly, the lack of system specifications alone, coupled with the perfectly dismal scores of the X1800 XT relative to it's Nvidia competition, would have been a cue that this was not the proper benchmark to publicly post as a "preliminary look" into ATI's R520 architecture. If the X1800 XT performs as it does here, then, indeed, I will be a disappointed person, but I will be disappointed with a piece of paper telling me that the tests that disappointed me were run on "such and such" a processor on "such and such" a motherboard.

There are no such details given here, besides the course of events between yourself and Mr. Andrzej Bania, which, by all rights, makes this a particularly useless and perhaps suspicious benchmark that is a borderline soap opera between HWA and ATI.

It is sad to see the relationship between Hardware Analysis and ATI Technologies sour in this fashion, but I can't justifiably say it wasn't deserved.

j l Sep 19, 2005, 06:23pm EDT Reply - Quote - Report Abuse
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Edited: Sep 19, 2005, 06:25pm EDT

 
>> Re: Re: Slander Sander? A reply to ATI
Nobody has come out of this looking pretty. Sander made a mistake by not simply posting the numbers without the irrelevant (and totally untrue) whinge that ATI only works with journos who fluff their products. And I can't belive that ATI leaked those private emails, that was seriously cheap.

But the most hilarious thing here is Sander's claim that his comment in an email ATI about lowering ATI's share price was a just a joke. Now, that's funny.

I'd have a lot more sympathy for his predicament if it wasnt for that slab of total BS.

SombaSan Sep 19, 2005, 11:33pm EDT Reply - Quote - Report Abuse
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Edited: Sep 19, 2005, 11:38pm EDT

 
>> Re: Re: Slander Sander? A reply to ATI
that is extremely childish on ATi's part, they should be worried on how to get there cards working straight instead of finding time to discredit turthful individuals.

good point of view sander.

like my old quote says. "seeing both prespectives is the only way to solve an arguement or a discussion."
-tsomba

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A_Pickle Sep 19, 2005, 11:45pm EDT Reply - Quote - Report Abuse
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>> Re: Re: Slander Sander? A reply to ATI
"...that is extremely childish on ATi's part, they should be worried on how to get there cards working straight instead of finding time to discredit turthful individuals..."

Unless this benchmark is false, which is... kind... of what the entire thing has been about. Honestly, there are no system specifications, and no sources cited. How can you possibly take this with anything but a grain of salt?

SombaSan Sep 20, 2005, 01:56am EDT Reply - Quote - Report Abuse
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>> Re: Re: Slander Sander? A reply to ATI
u do have a point, however there freaking out brings question. u nkow so ill wait until i see the benches then. (honestly i didnt check the bench marks yet, after i saw 7 sections of dialog i said f**k it.

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Hans Jacob Sep 20, 2005, 04:22am EDT Reply - Quote - Report Abuse
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Edited: Sep 20, 2005, 04:23am EDT

 
>> Le Pickle
"Considering the fact that weíve used a top-of-the-line AMD Athlon FX57 processor, with 1GB of OCZ DDR400 memory on the popular Asus A8N-SLI Deluxe motherboard your mileage may vary, we honestly donít know how these cards will do in a lower spec-ed system."

Unless Sander has recently pasted that bit into his conclusion, I'd say that we have a general idea what kind of hardware it was tested on ;)

Jason Silverman Sep 20, 2005, 04:49am EDT Reply - Quote - Report Abuse
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>> Re: Re: Slander Sander? A reply to ATI
The problem with most people is that they tend to not read a post fully, or an article fully, prior to making up their minds. And of course it is far easier to just believe the negative spin of some company than the lone individual that has exposed them to lie and cheat and start a smear campaign. Rest assured that I would also not be supportive of Sander's article if it indeed was meant to smythe ATI. He however discloses all the information he has and provided PRELIMINARY(!) benchmarks of a PREPRODUCTION(!) card that was NOT(!) tested by himself and he provided a DISCLAIMER(!) to me that just shows he's covered every base, no need to attack the person.

Frankly ATI has succeeded to spin the attention away from the scores mentioned in the article and on Sander as a person, which is a clear sign of bad ethics in my book. Andrzej Bania continues to this day to respin claims Sander has already PROVEN(!) false, yet people simply ignore this. Bania continues to smear Sander, ridicule him, whereas Sander has done everything he can to stay HONEST and OPEN about what happened. If you have not fully read his rebuttal following Andrzej Bania's post I frankly don't think you have the right to post here, or anywhere else, regarding this topic.

Again, keep up the good work Sander,

---
Jason Silverman

Andy Parker Sep 20, 2005, 05:54am EDT Reply - Quote - Report Abuse
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>> Re: Re: Slander Sander? A reply to ATI
If ATI are so concerned about this "misrepresentation" of their product, why don't they simply give the most up-to-date board they have to an independent third party for testing. Then you'd get a much better idea of the performance of the R520. Instead of taking a constructive approach, ATI have simply descended into a verbal slanging match which, at the end of the day, will achieve nothing.

So, ATI, if you're so confident about the performance of your product, prove it.



Andy

"Nobody expects the Spanish Inquisition!!!!"
Shadow_Ops_Airman1 Sep 20, 2005, 09:24am EDT Reply - Quote - Report Abuse
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>> Re: Re: Slander Sander? A reply to ATI
Good Article, way to stick it to mr bania, Sander personally You could continue to review ATi's Products or you can discontinue doing such thing, maybe ATi would greatly appreciate it if you reviewed their products during development and then the final product and see how far a architecture has come from the beginning.

BTW for all those still running older ATI Products, namely R300 Pro and R350 and R360 should keep with their stuff as On this Dell XPS Gen 1 Laptop, im running 2 Gigs PC 3200 ram, P4 EE 3.4 (Northwood/Gallatin), and ATI Mobility Radeon 9800, This Laptop kicks ass in gaming, As far as i know only thing is with mobility radeon you have to run Modified Drivers (Either use Mobility Modder from Driver Heaven to mod ATIs Catalyst, or use Drivers from Omega, NGO, Driver Heaven Zer0point, or Team Unian) Afaik Im impressed with the system i have, as for my system below, i havent used in a year as im in the US Airforce. If it was possible id build 2 New systems (A64 3700x2, NF4 U 400 or Uli TGI 1695M based motherboards, ATI Radeon 9700 Pro and Radeon 9800 Pro 256, overclock the hell out of the Vid cards, and then run extensive realworld benchmarks on them- namely games and see where they stand in ranks. What im saying is perhaps there is a possble chance to breath new life into old gen vid cards.

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Sander Sassen Sep 20, 2005, 10:09am EDT Reply - Quote - Report Abuse
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>> Re: Re: Slander Sander? A reply to ATI
Thanks everyone, the support is much appreciated. Someone pointed me to the below noted page in ATI's website and I couldn't help but read that and wonder if the PR people have been briefed about this, guess they slept in the morning when that particular briefing was given. I'll quote some of it below.

Leading the Way with ATI Code of Ethics
http://www.ati.com/companyinfo/about/codeofethics.html
http://www.ati.com/companyinfo/about/6005CodeofConductV3.pdf

"At ATI, we are committed to conducting our business with the highest level of integrity, honesty and professionalism. Maintaining high standards are also critical for maintaining investor confidence and shareholder value as a publicly traded and world-leading high-tech company.

The Code of Ethics outlines the key principles and policies that define our business practices and formalizes these standards. The rules set out in the Code serve as a complement to the corporate by-laws, policies and other corporate requirements and directives governing the conduct of ATI and its employees. In its application, the Code applies to all ATI directors, officers, and employees, whether full-time or part-time, and to all other service providers including, contractors and consultants.

ATI's Code of Ethics extends to wherever business is carried out on ATIís behalf including ATI offices, business travel and any other work-related functions such as meetings with third parties, seminars, conferences and training programs. As everyone lives up to the expectations in all places of business, in this regard ATIís reputation as an excellent company with high ethical standards will be upheld."

Regards,

Sander Sassen
Editor in Chief - Hardware Analysis
ssassen@hardwareanalysis.com
Shadow_Ops_Airman1 Sep 20, 2005, 10:19am EDT Reply - Quote - Report Abuse
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>> Re: Re: Slander Sander? A reply to ATI
apparently not, course sometimes people get out of line of professionalism, course thats one of my pet peeves now, civilian workers- i cant stand too many anymore. Btw Im part of the US Air Force.

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The Saint Sep 20, 2005, 01:17pm EDT Reply - Quote - Report Abuse
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>> Re: Re: Slander Sander? A reply to ATI
If ATI offers you something, it's up to you to decide whether to accept the offer or not. If you reject it, you should know that you can be cut out from other benefits and that you have no right to demand something in this situation.

Also I think that you made some inappropriate statements in emails sent to ATI and taken some rather improper actions (cc'ing Nvidia) which could be considered aggressive or harmful to the mailed person even if ment as a joke (but I don't recall any smileys made by you in your emails).

I don't think posting results of benchmarks that were not your results could do you any good in you position except generating more hits for your site. You should expect ATI's unhappy response.

ATI has a right to offer you or to not offer you certain benefits. If you are interested in, you should play their game, because it's their game. But ATI should not use it's position to be bad on you, as they too want something of you - a way to market. It should be a fair trade.

Let me apologize for my poor English.

Justin Sep 20, 2005, 02:10pm EDT Reply - Quote - Report Abuse
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>> Re: Re: Slander Sander? A reply to ATI
Sander,

I have been with HWA for serveral years, from what I have read in the articles on this site have been in line with what other sites have said. There have been a few times that you, Sander have you step on a few toes but everyone does it, and being a journalist it happens I am sure a little more often between members of the press. Attacking of individuals, is a practice that is done, probably always will be, does not mean I condone the actions of the press all the time, but the truth must be known, even if it does step on someone else's toes..

What has happened between you, Sander and ATI, it is unforunate but unavoidable. This means that I dont think any less of ATI products but I do think less of ATI representative. I do not think any less of you Sander as a journalist or as a person and you are a very objective journalist, your not perfect, but you are very good at what you do.

What this does this mean for ATI, is that in the future ATI should keep company matters, private. What that means is the inner workings of how ATI run is not my concern, the same goes for any company, unless I work there. The inner workings of how the R520 aka X1800 XT works is My concern, and problably the concern of almost every member on this site, and other sites. Why you ask because none of us want to waste money on a product that does not live up to its claims.

So now I am curious to know why it is that, ATI, who didnt care what you wrote and expressed it twice, why are they caring about it now, what has changed, what has this flame war done to the reputaion to you Sander and damage done to ATI, if any. So Mr. Andrzej Bania why did this happen in the first place. I understand that this is not a question that you can answer Sander, but the question still remains.

guru Shane Sep 20, 2005, 04:22pm EDT Reply - Quote - Report Abuse
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>> Re: Re: Slander Sander? A reply to ATI
Most of the time, I don't care about who is selling the product, as long as the product meets or exceeds what I am looking for. I do, however, draw the line when the one selling the product is immoral or uses their profits to do things that I would consider wrong. If ATI is going to use their profits and time to try to belittle someone that has a life other than bending to ATI's every whim, (such as being expected to attend every press conference), then I have to say that I'm not going to support them. Sander isn't on their payroll, and he certainly has no obligation to attend any of these meetings. If they can't be understanding of personal matters, then they aren't very realistic. For them to think that he should accept every offer that they extend and to try to punish him for not accepting is immature. Honestly, is he expected to attend every press conference by every hardware company? ATI needs to wake up and realize that he has a life, just like the rest of us, and his time is being called on by many things. For them to ignore this shows their arrogance. "Pride cometh before a fall", and ATI is struggling with its balance. I don't like bullies, and I am certainly enjoying the virtual punch in the face that Sander has just given them.

You're doing an excellent job holding your own Sander. Stick to telling the truth, even if it steps on some toes, and they'll never be ruin your name. I'll stand by you, as well as many others here.

Supreet Virdi Sep 20, 2005, 04:33pm EDT Reply - Quote - Report Abuse
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>> Re: Re: Slander Sander? A reply to ATI
I tend to agree with Justin on this matter somehow.

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Shadow_Ops_Airman1 Sep 21, 2005, 02:04am EDT Reply - Quote - Report Abuse
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>> Re: Re: Slander Sander? A reply to ATI
I dont think its ATi but those 2 reps from there, im pretty sure if Sander would write to the Higher Point in the Chain of Command he would get a reasonable response and possibly another wack at a Conference. He should also be up front with them if they provide him with an opportunity that he tells them if he has personal matters that are imperitive to his personal life take priority over any conference.

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