Sander

you say - " The warranty reduction should be a major tip-off. Something is seriously wrong "


So can we all assume this would apply to Western Digital and Maxtor when they did the same thing about 2 or so years ago ???????? all the hd that both of these companies that have made whom the warranties have been reduced in the form of retail or oem must be seriously wrong with them. Or would any of the many Nvidia fans here be saying the same thing when Nvidia follows in the same path ??????

Reducing warranties on products is just like layoffs in that it helps the company's liabilities. Reduce your over cost which helps increase the profit margins.

A_Pickle, whats with all this laptop BS?

No one that wants a high end machine for gaming or whatever would ever chose a laptop, maybe you have one, but desktops are whats meant to be used for high end rigs and games etc.

If you game on your laptop, fair enough, but I wouldnt be able to stand the tiny screen, crappy keyboard and fairly low spec hardware.

They're not designed for it

a laptop 4 games!!!!! wat r u crazy....if ur going 2 b playing high end games with high end parts in a laptop good luck trying 2 cool it down

I'd love to continue this conversation with you, Pickle, but EA Games, Newegg, and Nvidia just showed up with torches and pitchforks because I haven't yet bought their latest and greatest products.

/sarcasm

PS - I have a Radeon 7500 you might be interested in

u dont need 2 point out the sarcasm...its fairly obvious

Well our friend pickle seems to have trouble grasping the basic principles of capitalism, free market society, and personal consumer freedom, so I wanted to leave nothing to chance.

"...PS - I have a Radeon 7500 you might be interested in..."

I might be, actually.

And, no, I still disagree with you, but that's neither here nor there... my arguements are presented.

A_Pickle, I would have to be inclined to think that someone with those specs shouldn't be so opinionated about HIGH-end hardware. You are obviously a budget-oriented gamer. You have a Dell. You have an Intel. You have a low-end card. Honestly, what is driving you to praise ATI so highly? It certainly isn't the x800 xl. The 6800GT mopped the floor with that card. Go to any benchmark site to see this for yourself. Anyway, your ranting is looking more like you are desparately trying to save ATI from dying. If they are so close to death, then just put them out of their misery. Nvidia's products speak loudly for themselves with their performance, their temps, and their warrantees.

Karl?

You wrote the following:

'Well after two years of reading Sanders articles I have come to know that I can depend on him to bash ATI and stroke NVidia, no matter what the facts are. This is great for selling advertising space.as this is called preaching to the converted. Tell people what they want to hear and they will keep coming back for more keeping those site counters clicking away.

The thing that really get's me is that you basically do tell the truth but you color it in such a way that ATI is damned if it does or damned if it don't.'

Obviously you can put your money where your mouth is and show us exactly where I bash ATI and bliss NVIDIA right? In case you haven't noticed I wrote quite a few critical columns about NVIDIA as well, below are a few examples. I'm simply telling it like I see it, that's not bias, but based on simple logic, if a product fails to impress but is hyped nonetheless I inform you and other readers of that, to prevent you from buying it. It is not my fault that ATI has been misinforming their prospective customers over the past few months.

Scalable Link Interface, is it all a S-L-IE?
http://www.hardwareanalysis.com/content/search/results/article/1784/

AMD chipsets, quirky by nature?
http://www.hardwareanalysis.com/content/search/results/article/1786/

So either you refrain from making such comments or you back them up with some examples else you're simply coming off as a fanboy with a grudge, and really we can live without those.

Regards,

A_Pickle,

Mind if I pick (pun intended) at you some more, although the others seemed to have a go at you as well. You wrote:

'And in reply, no, I'm not going to stop posting. It's under my impression that these forums are here for the very purpose of commenting on your articles, which, in my opinion, have been slanted ever since the "Pentium 4 @ 5.2 GHz" article. I give you credit in that you know your hardware far, far, far beyond what I will ever hope to, but frankly, I don't find a veritable shred of "professional journalism" here.

If you wish me to stop posting, it is well within your administrative powers to ban me, despite the fact that I have not nor do I have the intention of violating the forum rules.'

I'm not telling you to stop posting, I'm telling you to stop trying to discredit me when you can't back up your claims with facts. I have nothing to gain by having a bias, it won't help advertising as I have no direct control what ads are run anyway, that's handled by a third party. Let me give you the same advice as I gave Karl above: either you refrain from making such comments or you back them up with some examples else you're simply coming off as a fanboy with a grudge. So either put up or shut up, alright?

Regards,

"...I'm not telling you to stop posting, I'm telling you to stop trying to discredit me when you can't back up your claims with facts..."

Admittedly, I didn't provide many examples in my initial post, and all subsequent ones omitting this one were about my misgivings for both SLI and CrossFire.

However, since you kindly ask, I will provide. As stated in my initial post, I am somewhat disgruntled by the lack of objective journalism at this site. The reports here are, by my observation, "bent," and are more often than not wildly defended by an army of loyal forum-goers. Here are certain "examples" of where I think even you, in a "professionally journalistic" sense, would concur that this does not convey objective journalism.

In the article entitled "ATI’s R520 architecture, the new king of the hill?" you open this "review" article with a particularly disfavorable slew of wording that would seem to indicate a somewhat strained relationship between ATI and Hardware Analysis. However, that doesn't excuse the fact that the first page of this article seems to show us nothing but that it has some questionable intentions behind it.

-- Excerpt: Unfortunately for ATI we have other sources to get detailed information from, for example the board partners that will be manufacturing and selling the majority of these new graphics cards. --

You begin with a particularly hurtful error, in stating that you have other sources from which you can acquire information from, but you fail in telling us exactly who these sources are. As you say

-- Excerpt: Normally we would’ve adhered to ATI’s NDA and published results the moment it expired. However this time around ATI decided to just not bother with us as they made it very clear that we did not make the cut, as we have written some articles about CrossFire, R520 and ATI’s financial situation that were apparently not appreciated --

Take for example the above statement. At this point, you haven't signed an NDA regarding the as-yet-unreleased hardware that, in all likelyhood, other reviewers have signed an NDA for. This gives you a legal advantage, but only expects that the company whose product is under review will not take favorably to under-performing reviews.

-- Excerpt: To ATI we’d like to comment that it is a two-way street really, we’d like to be briefed about your products and have early access to them, if that requirement is met we will have no issues with signing and adhering to NDAs. --

This gem is a cornerstone. A "two-way street." I will point out that ATI, at this point, has done nothing outside of their protected rights. They have simply chosen NOT to invite you to attend a press briefing of one of their products, well within the confines of their legal options. They don't HAVE to give you an early look at their product, it's a privelidge to be able to do so. You seem to think they DO have to, even so boldly stating that, quote: "if that REQUIREMENT is met... etc. etc."

Because of this choice not to invite a select member of the press, you have stated that, quote: "It is a two-way street really," which not only hints at the prospect that you're disgruntled, but drops the bomb that you wish to get even. It is a great misfortune that, legally, it was in fact a two-way street. ATI excercised their right to deny you early access, and you excercised your freedom of an NDA.

-- Excerpt: By cutting us off however we’ve just been given a new incentive to work harder to break the news when we get a chance, in our usual no holds barred fashion.--

Here you don't bother to amend the dangerously subjective path the article has taken in the first two paragraphs alone. You state that ATI's action (cutting you off) has directly led to your desire (new incentive) to suddenly write an article about ATI's as-yet-unreleased hardware. Does the phrase "no holds barred" perhaps infer a pro Nvidia sentiment? I'll leave that one for the reader to choose.

-- Excerpt: The R520 architecture will be introduced as the X1800 series, featuring the top-of-the-line Radeon X1800 XT with a 600MHz core clock and 700MHz memory clock, yielding an effective 1400MHz memory clock speed. --

Interesting, not only did ATI say that no X1800 XT's had been shipped, but the X1800 XT is, in fact running a 625 MHz core clock and a 1500 MHz memory clock speed. Your "source" had an interesting X1800 XT then, didn't it?

http://www.theinquirer.net/?article=26378

That's from the first three paragraphs of the "ATI’s R520 architecture, the new king of the hill?" I could waste my time constructing a novel including both the "ATI texture filtering quality? Shimmer this!" article as well as the article entitled, "ATI's CrossFire, too little too late?" I have neither the time nor the patience to do so. You see exactly what I do, you know what you wrote, and I would HOPE you would acknowledge the above statements to be far from the "objectivity" that you so claim to have.

And finally...

"...You are obviously a budget-oriented gamer..."

Were I a budget oriented gamer I would have purchased an X800 GT or X800 GTO of sorts. To add to that, I've not only not once had a problem with it, I'm damned proud to be running a Dell. Best computers in the world, bar none. This computer hasn't been formatted since I first bought it well over a year ago. Probably will be soon, 'cause I'm putting in a new hard drive (SATA), but I'm very happy with it, my Intel, and my ATI.

Hell, I know I can't game nearly as well as most people here, but I don't focus on gaming. This was the machine I went to the National 3D Animation & Visualization competition with. This was the machine that I came home with Third prize with. It's gonna get me the First prize I was cheated out of last year, this year.

"...You have a low-end card. Honestly, what is driving you to praise ATI so highly?"

Because they make a good card. Especially for someone like me, running stock speeds, I've not had a problem with their cards. My 9600 XT was the best card I ever owned, ran anything I ever wanted it to, and the X800 XL is doing its predecessor a good amount of justice.

"... It certainly isn't the x800 xl. The 6800GT mopped the floor with that card..."

I would ask you to recheck your benchmarks. The X800 XL draws less power, both idling and under load, than it's Nvidia counterpart. While both cards perform similarly, the 6800 GT also costs a lot more. Your appraisal of the X800 XL as a "low-end" card is far beyond gravely mistaken, most review sites (including this one) would place the X800 XL as the ATI equivalent of the 6800 GT in the "mid to high performance" section.

G.G,

I said that...not Sander.

Um, A_Pickle?

"To add to that, I've not only not once had a problem with it, I'm damned proud to be running a Dell. Best computers in the world, bar none."

I think you're just making yourself look a littly silly now. *grin*

A_Pickle,

You obvouisly are confusing me with Michael Adames-Hill given the latter few of your comments being his, not mine, but I'll let that slide for now. What I find all the more disturbing is the fact you keep repeating examples that I have already provided a rebuttal to. Furthermore these examples are from one single article. Clearly you're not going to base your judgement of me or the other content on this website on one article? And to make matter worse, you pick the one article that was put in proper perspective in a later article? I'm sorry, but that's not how you win an argument, that's how you make yourself look ignorant and frankly pretty stupid. I suggest you try again, with better ammo this time.

Regards,

Quote - Karl
"Now we have NVidia pushing magazine's to do video card articles comparing the 7800 to the X800 series of cards. It took two 6800s to beat one X800 and now they have a single card that can do it so I guess they want to make sure everyone hears about it."

You need to get your facts right, NVIDIA is pushing for tests vs. the X850 not the X800 which 1 6800Ultra 256 can smack across the face with ease, ATI did not beat the 6800Ultra until 6 months after the release of the 6800Ultra. And that was with the X850XT Platinum, and it beat it by what maybe 4% and that was in maybe 60% of applications, ATI called that a victory, well I think it was the first and only good thing they have made since the 9800Pro’s…

For the most part in the SLI reviews vs. the X800 and X850's they always seem to be setup with a little bit better rig. For the NVIDIA setup they use what they call their “reference” system, which is usually setup with a FX-55, but than always seem to give the X800 or a Crossfire setup the FX-57, Not many of us will see performance like this, as we don't have spec machines like run these tests on "Well maybe about 40 people on this forum might have a FX-55 and or a FX-57" I guess what I am trying to say is, lets get specs and benchies on systems that end users have! not systems they dream of, the idea of giving us what they call “Benchmarks” is to compare performance, how is the end user going to get an idea what performance he will get when he is running a AMD Athlon 64 3200+ ? I think it was THG that finally released Benchmarks on a Athlon 64 4000+ which was a bit better, but still most of us gamers have the 64 3200's+ 3500'+ and maybe 3800's+. S o lets see some benchmarks with 5 chips and not 1….

So with all that said, I joined the NVIDIA Camp quite a few years ago around the time they bought out Voodoo, Now I will give the ATI camp the victory of the 9800Pro, It was a solid card and did in fact kick NVIDIA’s butt “and at that time it was the other way, ATI Fanboys were bashing the Geforce series, But the NVIDIA loyalists stayed true to there maker…and the same will happen with ATI this time around.

I run a total of 3 SLI systems, and am glad I spent every penny for them, as some say SLI is a wasted tech! I disagree, I see the performance boosts in all my daily work duties, and especially in my gaming. I do own a few high priced AMD chips like the Athlon 64 4000+ and a FX-55, along with a cheaper Athlon 64 3200+ and they run with ease and blow my Intel systems out of the water. I have paired 6600GT’s, 6800Ultra’s, and now my new 7800GT’s in SLI with no Issues, no resolution cutoff, no matter how old or what series they are… I am very happy with SLI and it is a Better and cheaper way to go.

I even own a few ATI GC’s 1 X850, that I got in a trade and a X800, and have compared performance vs. my 6800Ultra and Ultra's and my 7800GT and GT's and just can't see why I would ever want to leave NVIDIA for that tech. "It is a beautiful card, but just doesn't do it for me"

ATi is a good company, and I am glad there is a good following that will help support them in this time of need, But companies have their ups and downs, and by no means do I think ATi is leaving the scene anytime soon, as they have more floating cash than almost any company on the market, I think they have been preparing themselves for something like this. AS it bit NVIDIA in the Butt a few years ago.

So in all, buy what you want and talk crap all you want, as everyone is entitled to an opinion. But I just say lets see more realistic benchmarks and see how our mid range towers can full these Graphic Monsters 

Quote - G. G.
"Or would any of the many Nvidia fans here be saying the same thing when Nvidia follows in the same path ?????? "

Nvidia is going the opposite way of ATI, Instead of limiting warranties they are giving LIFETIME...FOREVER>>>>>>>Warranties!! big difference, NVIDIA is showing they stand behind thier product.


AND ANSWER ME THIS, As Not 1 Person can defend this....
If ATI's X850XL PLatnium are so much better in your eyes along with Intel CPU's!!! why are they not even in the top 50 or 100 or even 200 at that? over at 3DMark??? for 01,03, and 05? 3Dmark is a no-bias Benchmarking system, That just shows there that ATI can't compete! right?

Thanks

Sledgehammer70
http://www.mandmcr.com
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
AMD Athlon 64 FX-55
ASUS A8N-SLI Deluxe stock Bios If it ain't broke why fix it?
Corsair XMS Plat. 2 x 1Gig PC3200 DDR400
2 x Nvidia EVGA 7800GT 256MB at 474Mhz/ 1.22Ghz
Anetec 550W PSU
2 x 250GB Maxtor Diamond drives
Creative Audigy 2 ZS Plt.
Creative 5.1 Surround 250Watts
Zalman 7700 CPU Cooler
and some nice fans and lights.......

"...You obvouisly are confusing me with Michael Adames-Hill given the latter few of your comments being his, not mine..."

The latter few are in reply to Blue.

"...What I find all the more disturbing is the fact you keep repeating examples that I have already provided a rebuttal to...."

If you can show me your rebuttal, I would gladly look it over. As of yet, I've seen a rebuttal to nothing but ATI's counterarguement.

"...Furthermore these examples are from one single article..."

True, but I did clarify that I didn't want to write a forum-side novel to base my opinion. If you'd like me to, I'd gladly provide examples.

"...Clearly you're not going to base your judgement of me or the other content on this website on one article?"

No, I've seen others from long before the onslaught on ATI began. All the same, I've seen a lot of really good articles from this site but that doesn't, in my mind, erase the fact that a lot of them have been bent in one way or another.

"...And to make matter worse, you pick the one article that was put in proper perspective in a later article? I'm sorry, but that's not how you win an argument, that's how you make yourself look ignorant and frankly pretty stupid..."

I didn't find the "Reply to ATI" article to have provided any "proper perspective" for an article that was supposed to be an objective review article.

A_Pickle,

You wrote:

'that was supposed to be an objective review article'

It wasn't as I stated from the onset, so I guess you started off on the wrong foot. Can we please drop this now and move forward, or do you want me to make bad jokes about Dell computer users instead, it is very tempting to be honest.

Regards,

"...Can we please drop this now and move forward..."

I'm perfectly content to move forward, I'm simply pointing out my opinion regarding the quality of "objective journalism" that one can expect to find here. If objectivity isn't your goal, then, by all means, I stand corrected and I offer my apologies.

However, I'm unsure if that's the case.

"...or do you want me to make bad jokes about Dell computer users instead, it is very tempting to be honest..."

I'm fairly used to it here, by now.

...and I'm more than happy to move on.

Not to open up sealed wounds here, but, the article was objective. In fact, it would be a disservice to us all if Sander wasn't skeptical in his article. The simple truth of the matter is that Ati has made bold claims that it has yet to back up. They are behind schedule and they are slipping. Until they back up what they are saying then anything they do will be under intense scrutiny. If Sander just said "Ati R520 is the roxxor and will pwn all" without telling us that it's not the technology we were poromised and it's behind and the warranty is only a year and there is a lawsuit pending.........that would be irresponsible. It would be the same article if it were Nvidia or anybody else.

While it is seprate from whatever issues Sander had with that Ati rep, anything related to the going's on at Ati are relevant to the release of the R520 and crossfire. It's really bad timing that Sander had this falling out with Ati. The fact still remains that Ati is dragging it's knuckles.

Ati-
put up or shut up, plain and simple

Now I think were getting a little off the point here guys.
It has to be said that 12 months ago nVidia were in an equally bad, if not worse position than ATi are right now, being slapped left, right and centre by the X800 series cards.
I am really an ATi fan, but credit to nVidia; instead of rolling over and dieing, they were the ones to push the technology forward to the next generation introducing SLi, and utilizing the latest shader modules etc... and now that they have caught ATi napping on what was much superior GPU technology for 6 months there simply reaping the benefits and ATi cant cope - ATi have no one to blame but themselves for falling behind in the market, and then trying to come back with a sub-standard solution too late.
But, the point that I'm trying to make being that although right now nVidia hold the high-ground, come this time next year ATi will have more than caught up in the race as the cross-fire technology has developed and the R520 has been fully implemented - But for now, the 7800 series cards rule king, especially when run in SLi, and no amount of b*tching and name calling is really going to change the true fact that they benchmark much higher than any current ATi cards - Especially from a DELL_n00b who probably has never looked inside his computer case, let alone tried to play with any of it...
And A_Pickle, quite frankly, someone who buys over-priced systems, that are shipped with over 70 start-up processes then makes utterly idiotic comments like "hey, I'm on AGP, what do I care, I paid less for a faster card" and "I'm damned proud to be running a Dell. Best computers in the world, bar none.", is hardly in a position to start crying over a little corporate muscling when the current nVidia cards, and SLi solutions far out-perform anything ATi have on the market - So shut up and wait for when ATi have better solutions available so that you can back up your misinformed, tainted and petty comments about both nVidia and this site with some real facts.