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Stan Miranda Oct 05, 2006, 12:41pm EDT Report Abuse
>> 

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John Ingram Oct 05, 2006, 12:44pm EDT Report Abuse
>> 
Dale: Ever thought a lot of those owners just bought a PC at an independant store or on the web or from eBay to save money? What do the average home user as opposed to hardcore gamer/upgrader know about all this licensing crap? Many many PC's are sold with no spare OS CD, no seperate license or anything. My Sister bought a PC from the local independant PC store and only called me when they had a crash and found out they needed the OS CD to fix it. It had not occured to them at all. (Obviously they didn't ask me!). That is the vast majority of PC purchasers, not people like us. That is who this reviewer is talking about and quite right too. For it's the average home or business PC buyer that keeps the market alive, not the huge corporations that buy 100 at a time but then look after them in-house.

Stan Miranda Oct 05, 2006, 12:45pm EDT Report Abuse
>> 
To the guy that agress with MS.Your wrong. What if a person with helth problems like myself starts to install vista. I have a heart attack before I get a chance to register.Your saying it my fault! whats wrong with you,!!! pay you now or pay you later? I dont think so.I can smell microsoft on your breath from all the ass kissing.

Beavis Khan Oct 05, 2006, 12:49pm EDT Report Abuse
>> 
dark41 said:
Being a system builder, I guess I have a slightly different view than most on this subject. I can also add a little to the facts.

"You can - if you bought a retail license. An OEM copy, on the other hand, is licensed only to the hardware with which it was originally purchased."

Total hogwash. An OEM OS is designed to be sold as a bundle with other hardware and be pre-installed. Nowhere does an OEM license state that hardware components can't change at a later date. In fact, I use nothing but OEM versions of XP, even on our own systems. We constantly upgrade components that cause the OS to be reinstalled (hard drive, motherboard), call MS on the number provided, explain the reason for reactivition, and are provided another key to type in. The only question asked is if this specific license is on more than one system.


Sorry, I should have been more specific - the motherboard is the magic component. Once the OEM copy is installed, it's essentially bound to that particular motherboard. If upgrading the motherboard for any reason other than hardware failure/warranty replacement, you have created a "new computer", and need a new license. Memory, hard drives, etc can all be swapped out without violating these terms. Since I don't have access to Microsoft's OEM system builder site, I can't link directly, but here's a relevant post that references it:

http://channel9.msdn.com/ShowPost.aspx?PostID=223966

____
"For every complex problem, there is a solution that is simple, neat, and wrong."

- H.L. Mencken
John Bailey Oct 05, 2006, 12:54pm EDT Report Abuse
>> 
I can second the clueless users argument. I've had them all. Just setting up systems for friends is bad enough. I can only imagine some of the mistakes new users make that the professionals see. Basically if you can think of a mistake, no doubt someone has done it several times. These are not people who will have the faintest idea what an operating system is, and no idea of how to install one. I can see a lot of angry people walking into computer shops and demanding a refund because they were sold "pirated "software after 30 days. Its already happening with genuine XP installations that fail the test.

Like everyone else, I have no objection to MS requiring validation of some sort to reduce piracy, but they could easily give computer retailers a phone number and account number to reactivate the thing and regester the old serials as expired. Or give users the ability to email or fax the licence to them as proof of purchase. Dismissing the claims of mistaken deactivation as they do now is insane.

Give it a while and the Vista crop of WGA failures will dwarf the current XP problem. I can see a lot of p**sed off retailers and a lot of small PC builders going out of business very quickly. Hopefully the mainstream media will kick up a big enough stink to force MS to withdraw this nonsense.

If nothing else, it might make the retailers demand that they are supplied with XP and that they validate the software in the shop in front of the customer, as to install and activate the software before it is signed over to the user will possibly invalidate the licence somehow.

Not buying the OS is a good idea... If it could be done on a large enough scale. But as MS makes most of it's money from business licences, its not going to hurt them that much if the home users rebel. There is still a lot of business customers with lots of expensive custom written applications that they need for day to day use.

I have no need of Windows anymore, as I'm just a home user, so no need for heavy duty business apps etc. And Linux surfs the web better and safer than Windows and the associated MS apps apart from a few media types that I haven't figured out how to play yet. The problem is that for the majority of users, they have no idea that Linux exists, let alone what hardware works with it and what doesn't, so as far as they are concerned, there is no choice.

Hopefully MS managment will be living in very interesting times....

dark41 Oct 05, 2006, 01:00pm EDT Report Abuse
>> 
Dale,
My mother bought a PC from Staples a few years ago in Portage, WI. I was there on vacation and got the lucky resposibility of picking it out for her from the only PC vendor in town, because she was too impatient to wait (2 days) for me to order parts and assemble it. Anyway, problem was that the key was not affixed to the side of the case, as an OEM key is required to be by the license. So those 3rd party software key finders are worth their weight in gold for people who buy from Staples or other vendors who don't follow the rules. I have yet to see one come off the side of a case.

That said, a better way is how we do it. We supply the CD with every computer that we sell, record the license key for each customer, and affix the license to the side of the case as required. That's also a foreign practice to Staples. Again, the situation is easily remedied with a phone call to us if the key is lost.

Furthermore, MS is stopping security updates for anything less than SP2. Vendors such as Staples sold countless S478 Prescott CPUs with motherboards prior to SP2, which require a BIOS update to install SP2. So not only do you require a key finder, but you also require hardware identification software to find the correct BIOS for your system, since Staples (in fairness, neither does Dell, CompUSA, HP, etc., etc..) does not list the motherboard manufacturer and model number anywhere on their documentation. Bottom line is that all these time saving things for Staples end up costing the customer more $ and/or time in the end. :-)

EX38-DS5
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Cambridge Soundworks 500w 5.1
G5, Antec 1200
ITGL72 Oct 05, 2006, 01:10pm EDT Report Abuse
>> 
Mark McCardell said:
Somebody had mentioned switching to FreeBSD or Linux.
I'm quite surprised the gaming industry hasn't taken the lead on this. I remember the old days when people would explicitly run games under DOS instead of Windows to gain a performance advantage. With the clear performance advantage given by Linux, I really surprised that more games are not ported to the Linux OS.
Hell, if some enterprising individual built a gaming centric distro (one that would ease the installation of those ATI linux drivers) I have a feeling it would be very successful.
All it would take is one game review where a user gained an additional 20 FPS on Halo 2 under Linux and every kid would download that distro the following day. :D



That would certainly open my eyes, if it were available.

Peter Lambert Oct 05, 2006, 01:15pm EDT Report Abuse
>> 
Some time ago someone from Microsoft compared the IT industry with the automobile industry.
Their point was that if the auto industry performed like IT you could purchase a car for $5 and it would do 1000 MPH.
OK, so taking this latest "innovation" from Mr Gates' gang, if Ford or GM adopt the same policy does that mean my car would crash, the wheels fall off, or something equally drastic if I did not get it serviced by one of their garages within 30 days of the due date?
Ridiculous perhaps but only applying the Microsoft rules to other industries.

Pete

dark41 Oct 05, 2006, 01:32pm EDT Report Abuse
>> 
Big Beavis,
The license is worded to cover the initial sale of an OEM OS with a system. Future upgrades are not effected by it in any way. In fact, read chapter 14 (Activation) where it states:

"Product activation procedures and Microsoft's privacy policy will be detailed during the initial launch of the product, or upon certain reinstallations of the software product(s) or reconfigurations of this computer, and may be completed by internet or telephone (toll charges may apply)."

The OEM license is available for anyone to read. No specific hardware component is mentioned anywhere as not being upgradable. :-)

http://www.microsoft.com/oem/sblicense/default.mspx

EX38-DS5
E8500@4.0GHz (445x9, 1.40v) TRUE Black
Corsair HX620W
2x2gb Kingston HyperX 9600
HIS IceQ4 HD4850
2X1TB F1s (RAID 0) XP Pro/Win7 Ult 64
Auzen X-Fi Prelude 7.1
Cambridge Soundworks 500w 5.1
G5, Antec 1200
Beavis Khan Oct 05, 2006, 02:10pm EDT Report Abuse
>> 
dark41 said:
Big Beavis,
The license is worded to cover the initial sale of an OEM OS with a system. Future upgrades are not effected by it in any way. In fact, read chapter 14 (Activation) where it states:

"Product activation procedures and Microsoft's privacy policy will be detailed during the initial launch of the product, or upon certain reinstallations of the software product(s) or reconfigurations of this computer, and may be completed by internet or telephone (toll charges may apply)."


Fair enough. Two questions in response to this:

1) What does the EULA say on the subject? The link you've provided seems to be a "contract" between MS and the OEM, not the ultimate end user. I can't seem to google up the actual EULA right now...

2) What, if anything, is the relevance of the link I posted earlier? Why would this Q&A be posted on the system builder site if it were patently false?

____
"For every complex problem, there is a solution that is simple, neat, and wrong."

- H.L. Mencken
Merc Oct 05, 2006, 02:38pm EDT Report Abuse
>> 
I have no problem with MS protecting their capital investment. I have had to call to get a new number for my OS and was always teated kindly and quickly. I have also installed a Dell OEM XP onto a new build (same CPU, everything else different) and was issued an activation code quickly.

MS has spent, probably, a couple of billion dollars on this OS and piracy hurts the bottomline. Stealing an OS is no different than stealling anything else out there. I can't fathom why people think that they have a right to use a product without buying it just because it goes on a PC. Can you walk into Big Box and stroll out with a new 7900GT just because it will go on your PC? Get Linux if you don't want to pay for an OS.

Now, am I going to buy this OS? No, not until MS releases their first big SP. Actually, not until I absolutely have to. The thing sounds like a bloated, cranky, problem child program right out of the box. Not until I can get a OEM CD for $89 at the Egg.

There is much more worrisome components in Vista that i wish Sander would address. Plus, it sounds like it is a system hog (as Sander has addressed) hurts performance and will be outrageously expensive. MS is still "fixing" XP after 5 years, I think that in two years I'll consider buying Vista with SP2.

Merc
Modified Lian Li PC 7077A
Dual Watercooling Loops
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2 x 150gb WD in Raptors in RAID 0
1 x 640
Bitmap Oct 05, 2006, 02:54pm EDT Report Abuse
>> 
CrAsHnBuRnXp said:
ITGL72 said:
I'm a gamer, DX10 is coming, I will need vista.

Is that your only reason?

In my opinion, both DX10 and Vista is going to suck right off the bat.


I'm not trying to be rude here, but...

Point 1: In your opinion? Have you seen anything running DX10? Look at the Crysis screenshots, for crying out loud!

Point 2: Check out the Vista RC1 DVD. I have it dual-booting, and quite frankly, I friggin' love it! I haven't come across a single thing that I don't like yet.

I will say that the one thing that bothers meis that Microsoft has decided thta DirectX 10 is to be Vista-exclusive, forcing their gaming customers to upgrade, just to play the games they want to play. IMHO, that's a load of crap and then some.

But this thread is about Windows Genuine Advantage, so I'll stop deviating from the topic. :)

________
"None of you understand. I'm not locked up in here with you. YOU'RE locked up in here with ME." - Walter Kovacs, A.K.A. Rorschach.
dark41 Oct 05, 2006, 03:20pm EDT Report Abuse
>> 
Fair enough. Two questions in response to this:

1) What does the EULA say on the subject? The link you've provided seems to be a "contract" between MS and the OEM, not the ultimate end user. I can't seem to google up the actual EULA right now...

2) What, if anything, is the relevance of the link I posted earlier? Why would this Q&A be posted on the system builder site if it were patently false?


I assume you're referring to 'user' Erik's post in particular on channel9.msdn.com. If so, he doesn't look like he knows much about the subject and I have no idea where he got his quote from. As you can see for yourself, neither the OEM license nor the EULA jive with his quote.

1) The MS EULA is the same for both OEM and retail versions, as whether its retail or OEM does not effect the end user's rights. You are correct that my first link was the actual OEM contract for system builders. Erik's quote is referring to my rights as a system builder, and what I'm responsible for supporting. It has nothing to do with whether or not Windows can be activated with a new motherboard, or even transferred to another internal system. Obviously, if a customer has their motherboard changed by someone other than me, I'm not responsible for supporting his system anymore.

Most relevant to upgrades is:

"1.2 Mandatory Activation. The license rights granted under this EULA are limited to the first thirty (30) days after you first install the Software unless you supply information required to activate your licensed copy in the manner described during the setup sequence of the Software. You can activate the Software through the use of the Internet or telephone; toll charges may apply. You may also need to reactivate the Software if you modify your computer hardware or alter the Software."

Nothing about specific components that can't be modified. In fact from my own experience, if you replace a motherboard with an identical one, you don't even need to reactivate the OS. It's only if you change chipsets that the OS has to be reinstalled because of the drivers change.

Or you can go a step further:

"13. SOFTWARE TRANSFER. Internal. You may move the Software to a different Workstation Computer. After the transfer, you must completely remove the Software from the former Workstation Computer. Transfer to Third Party. The initial user of the Software may make a one-time permanent transfer of this EULA and Software to another end user, provided the initial user retains no copies of the Software. This transfer must include all of the Software (including all component parts, the media and printed materials, any upgrades, this EULA, and, if applicable, the Certificate of Authenticity). The transfer may not be an indirect transfer, such as a consignment. Prior to the transfer, the end user receiving the Software must agree to all the EULA terms."

This also contradicts what Erik's quote says.

http://www.microsoft.com/windowsxp/home/eula.mspx

2) I'm not familiar with http://channel9.msdn.com. Again, I assume you're referring to 'user' Erik's post in particular, which he claims to be a quote from the system builder's site. In any case, that is not an official Microsoft forum. I have no idea where he gets his quote from, but its not from either the OEM license nor the EULA and doesn't jive with what either say.

My previous link for the OEM license is directly from Microsoft's system builder site. Says so right at the top of the page. Both links are from microsoft.com. The EULA and OEM license are 2 completely separate things, but neither prohibits upgrades. The end user can also transfer to any number of internal systems, as long as it's only on 1 at a time.

Hope this helps to clear up some myths about activation, which will be the same situation with Vista. :-)

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Corsair HX620W
2x2gb Kingston HyperX 9600
HIS IceQ4 HD4850
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Dave Kelsen Oct 05, 2006, 03:42pm EDT Report Abuse
>> 
Big Beavis said:
dark41 said:
Being a system builder, I guess I have a slightly different view than most on this subject. I can also add a little to the facts.

"You can - if you bought a retail license. An OEM copy, on the other hand, is licensed only to the hardware with which it was originally purchased."

Total hogwash. An OEM OS is designed to be sold as a bundle with other hardware and be pre-installed. Nowhere does an OEM license state that hardware components can't change at a later date. In fact, I use nothing but OEM versions of XP, even on our own systems. We constantly upgrade components that cause the OS to be reinstalled (hard drive, motherboard), call MS on the number provided, explain the reason for reactivition, and are provided another key to type in. The only question asked is if this specific license is on more than one system.


Sorry, I should have been more specific - the motherboard is the magic component. Once the OEM copy is installed, it's essentially bound to that particular motherboard. If upgrading the motherboard for any reason other than hardware failure/warranty replacement, you have created a "new computer", and need a new license. Memory, hard drives, etc can all be swapped out without violating these terms. Since I don't have access to Microsoft's OEM system builder site, I can't link directly, but here's a relevant post that references it:

http://channel9.msdn.com/ShowPost.aspx?PostID=223966



Where the earlier post was not correct, this one is. Thank you for the clarification.

My point was that even when the system is entirely different, it is unreasonable for Microsoft to tell me I need to purchase another copy. It is not unreasonable for Microsoft to expect or require me to use my purchased copy of the operating system on only one machine. It is entirely unreasonable for them to specify which machine.

For what it's worth, I am one of two software engineers responsible for installation of operating systems on PC's we manufacture at a fairly small ($80M year) company. If you are not an OEM installer or otherwise connected to Microsoft in some way, you absolutely would not believe how much email I get concerning what Microsoft is doing for me, and what I can do for myself and my customers by using and pressing Microsoft's Genuine Advantage and related malware.

Anecdotally, several months ago I updated my home machine's CPU, video card and RAM at one time. I did not have to re-activate WXPSP2. Until I copied over my entire build from a 180GB ATA drive to a 300GB SATA drive, that is. The software was identical, but the medium changed, and required a re-activation. You never know...

Dave Kelsen

Adam Kolak Oct 05, 2006, 03:46pm EDT Report Abuse
>> 
I have had two "problems" with WGA. First was that the WGA recognized my Aunt's legitimate copy of XP as "fake", but I found a way around that. And the second "problem" is that I have a copy of XP that is kinda "iffy" but is not recogonized as ungenuine.

Adam Kolak
Moderator, Hardware Analysis
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Beavis Khan Oct 05, 2006, 03:50pm EDT Report Abuse
>> 
dark41, the more info I get on this subject, the more confused I get. Take this, for example:

http://www.microsoft.com/piracy/YourPC_do.mspx

"OEM software licenses cannot be transferred from one computer system to another, even if the computer system on which it was originally installed is no longer in use."

This pretty much directly contradicts what you've pasted in from the EULA, above. It is interesting to note that the EULA you've linked to explicitly specifies (RETAIL) in the title -- is it possible there really are differences between the Retail/OEM EULAs? If not, it's no wonder people just ignore these things...even MS can't seem to keep the terms straight :)

____
"For every complex problem, there is a solution that is simple, neat, and wrong."

- H.L. Mencken
dark41 Oct 05, 2006, 04:23pm EDT Report Abuse
>> 
Big Beavis said:
dark41, the more info I get on this subject, the more confused I get. Take this, for example:

http://www.microsoft.com/piracy/YourPC_do.mspx

"OEM software licenses cannot be transferred from one computer system to another, even if the computer system on which it was originally installed is no longer in use."

This pretty much directly contradicts what you've pasted in from the EULA, above. It is interesting to note that the EULA you've linked to explicitly specifies (RETAIL) in the title -- is it possible there really are differences between the Retail/OEM EULAs? If not, it's no wonder people just ignore these things...even MS can't seem to keep the terms straight :)


Agreed, its a confusing mess. From everything I've read on OEM vs retail EULA's, they are identical. If anything, the differences in OEM would be to protect system builders, not to generate more $ for MS. All I can offer is that all of our systems (internal and customers) have always used OEM versions and I've never had a problem reactivating after an upgrade, unless you consider having to call MS a problem. So IF there is something I'm missing about the OEM rules on upgrading components, MS sure isn't enforcing anything other than it only being on 1 system at a time. I know I've stated several times that I've upgraded the motherboard and never been told that this constitutes a new system and voids my key. I've got to be pushing the 50 activation limit though. LOL!

I own Ultramax Custom Computers (Adelaide Australia), so there's not much I haven't done a time or 20. I backup to an image file with Acronis and have never needed to reactivate upon rebuilding the image, so go figure. Just goes to show that anything can happen with puters. There's not always a logical explanation to it. ;)

Now I'm REALLY going to bed.:)

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Gerco van der Boon Oct 05, 2006, 04:40pm EDT Report Abuse
>> 
I recently bought an official XP from Microsoft. The EULA says that I can install XP on 1 computer. Microsoft likes to believe that that 1 pc is static whereas most buyers think it's dynamic. In other words: you can install xp on 1 computer, no matter which computer, as long as it's only one concurrent computer.

If, however, you need to reactivate because you have different hardware, Microsoft might decide that it's a different/new computer and not activate your copy. No matter how right (or wrong of course!) the customer is, Microsoft controls the switches and leaves the customer powerless (would a customer drag Microsft to court, given the costs?).

It's my first original copy because I felt I should. Now, I read about the way Microsoft handles customers, I doubt if I will ever buy any product from Microsoft. Their hunger for money and power is beyond words. Mr. Gates has like 35 billion smackeroonies. How do you sell this to customers, who pay very deerly for a sucky operating system?

Yes, we could all decide not to buy Vista. That would hurt them but I fear in the long rung we have to because else we can't run the programs we like to run.

The only good thing to happen, is for a non Amerircan company to stand up and introduce a new, cheaper and more reliable operating system and you'll have Microsoft running their butt off to lower prices and increase services. Monopoly makes lazy and expensive, especially since Microsoft is very likely supported by the American government.

Linux has potential in my humble opinion. If only software developers had to guts to switch to have their applications/games run under Linux (as well), it'll be true competition.

I myself am sick and tired of Microsoft controlling my pc

A_Pickle Oct 05, 2006, 05:21pm EDT Report Abuse
>> 
CrAsHnBuRnXp Oct 05, 2006, 11:16 AM
Is that your only reason?

In my opinion, both DX10 and Vista is going to suck right off the bat.


Qualify that. Vista isn't perfect, but there are a lot of really nice changes to Windows, not the least of which is DirectX 10. If they suck so much, though, I guess by this time next year we can all confidently talk to you for Ubuntu help?

Darren Reynolds Oct 05, 2006, 11:32 AM
Remember Millenium??


On what evidence do you predict that Vista will be anything like Windows ME? Have you even used it?

Stan Miranda Oct 05, 2006, 11:34 AM
This crap has to stop & stop now. We the people have the real power over Microsoft.Were the ones who buy their products.It is up to us to stop this before it happens. If people would just stand up for thier rights this wouldn't happen.


This "crap" is, essentially, our creation. We the people have pirated (read: stolen) Microsoft's product. We were the ones who didn't buy their products. It was up to us to stop that, but instead, we whine and bitch and cry when Microsoft introduces a solution for it. Thanks for looking at the other side.

Do I think WGA is good? Well, I don't necessarily think it's bad. For some, strange reason, I've never had a problem with it.

Mark McCardell Oct 05, 2006, 12:32 PM
I'm quite surprised the gaming industry hasn't taken the lead on this. I remember the old days when people would explicitly run games under DOS instead of Windows to gain a performance advantage. With the clear performance advantage given by Linux, I really surprised that more games are not ported to the Linux OS.


People don't know Linux. How the hell do you install a game on Linux? Why would game makers cater to less than 1% of the market? And who are you to say there'd be a performance advantage? Windows supports DirectX, OpenGL (and other API's, now since antiquated). Linux does not. Windows has Windows Installer, which makes it pretty easy for people to get games installed on their systems. Linux does not. Windows has an advanced and fast driver model. Linux does not.

John Ingram Oct 05, 2006, 12:44 PM
Dale: Ever thought a lot of those owners just bought a PC at an independant store or on the web or from eBay to save money?


If they purchased a tower at an outstandingly low price, but it came with an illegitimate copy of Windows, then they should pay for the copy of Windows. They would've paid for it if they'd bought a computer with a legitimate one, anyways.

Stan Miranda Oct 05, 2006, 12:45 PM
To the guy that agress with MS.Your wrong. What if a person with helth problems like myself starts to install vista. I have a heart attack before I get a chance to register.Your saying it my fault! whats wrong with you,!!! pay you now or pay you later? I dont think so.I can smell microsoft on your breath from all the ass kissing.


{gasp) No! He agrees with Microsoft? OH MY GOD.[/sarcasm and idiocy]

You can validate Windows at anytime. A heart attack doesn't make your Windows any less legitimate, so when you get back from the hospital, you run Windows in "Reduced Functionality Mode" for the 12 seconds required for you to go to Control Panel --> System and then "Enter Activation Key."

Problem solved, Microsoft basher.

brian pope Oct 05, 2006, 05:44pm EDT Report Abuse
>> 
I say good luck MS!

1st my PC would need to be connected to the Internet, none of my PC's get connected until all updates are installed & my AV & firewall software are added, along with IP blocking software & custom host file, at which point MS can't touch my PC.

2nd if I decided to run a pirate version of Vista, I'd do so on one of my PC's that I use for BT'ing, then every 29 days I'd simply Ghost back my day 1 image & carry on using Vista to download for another 29 days. It takes all of 10 minutes to restore an image & I've been doing this with my bought version XP Pro for 3 years now, it's installed on 3 PC's.

Or

3rd, if you play a little game with your BIOS clock, it really messes up MS activation, provided of course you have a properly configured firewall, IP blocker, host file & disable various Windows services. A firewall alone doesn't prevent your PC from talking to MS or your ISP or any of the software vendors who's products you have installed, even though most people truly believe firewalls do.

One day 2 years ago I thought to myself, I have a clock on my desk, why would I need to look at my PC to get the time, why would anything on my PC need to know the time, I manually update all my software.

So using that logic I played around with the BIOS, it turned out when I was done it prevent Windows from doing the 30 day countdown, infact all trial software I installed became stuck on day 1 forever.

Plus I run a bought & paid for version of XP Pro, if I want to install it on all "my" PC's it's none of MS's business, their EULA means nothing in Canadian, EULA's actually violate our charter of rights & are uninforcable here. It's only in the land of the free that EULA's mean anything to individual's.


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