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Bitmap Oct 05, 2006, 06:48pm EDT Report Abuse
>> 
Pete Crane said:
"The scenario you described is one of a "babe in the woods" total novice non-geek PC user who wouldn't know Microsoft from Maytag would do or a MS basher who should stick to hardware advice and reviews which you so excellently do..
I guess you're advocating the free use of the Vista CD's as we, myself included, had with our Windows 95, 98 and ME's?
Knowing full well that each CD was licensed for only one PC by the owner or purchaser of said CD?

So innocent mistakes make you a novice non-geek. I can't recall the number of times I've misplaced my FarCry CD, and hunting around for it for half an hour, as I'm frantically packing up for a LAN party.

Also, I believe a good 98% of the population knows Microsoft from Maytag. Your statements hold no water. Take them elsewhere.

________
"None of you understand. I'm not locked up in here with you. YOU'RE locked up in here with ME." - Walter Kovacs, A.K.A. Rorschach.
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Post Mortem Oct 05, 2006, 06:55pm EDT Report Abuse
>> 
Mark McCardell said:
With the clear performance advantage given by Linux...


In my experience that is simply not true, athough I love Linux, and would prefer to be able to ditch Windows for ever, I have never seen a game that runs natively under Linux, run faster, or for that matter as fast as it's Windows counterpart.




I hate the whole activation thing, and that if you change your PC in certain ways you end up having to call MS to activate your OS etc. If I purchased an OS, or system with an OEM XP, and I want to do nothing else but sit there and reformat and install that OS over and over and over again, (as long as it is only on one PC) I should have the right to do that, not be limited by 50 installs. (If the number 50 is indeed true, this is what I understand, and I would be getting close on one of my PC's) I don't like the fact that I have to call MS each time to activate it now, although it's pretty painless, it's a PITA just the same. But MS do have a right to try an protect it's product, and stop people stealing it, and whatever they do, well, thats their business, they have the right to do what they see fit. When I have finally had enough, I'll just stop using/buying MS products, and move completely to Linux, the only thing stoping me from moving over completely now is gaming, and the lack of Linux support for editing/moding tools, a lot of which a win32 only.

arlen nelson Oct 05, 2006, 07:08pm EDT Report Abuse
>> 
Plus I run a bought & paid for version of XP Pro, if I want to install it on all "my" PC's it's none of MS's business, their EULA means nothing in Canadian, EULA's actually violate our charter of rights & are uninforcable here. It's only in the land of the free that EULA's mean anything to individual's.


Oh!?!?! Do, tell... can you point me in the direction of the exact statements and sections of the charter... VERY interested!

thanks.

Beavis Khan Oct 05, 2006, 07:08pm EDT Report Abuse
>> 
A_Pickle said:
Do I think WGA is good? Well, I don't necessarily think it's bad. For some, strange reason, I've never had a problem with it.


Data is not the plural of anecdote.

____
"For every complex problem, there is a solution that is simple, neat, and wrong."

- H.L. Mencken
Bitmap Oct 05, 2006, 07:15pm EDT Report Abuse
>> 
Big Beavis said:
A_Pickle said:
Do I think WGA is good? Well, I don't necessarily think it's bad. For some, strange reason, I've never had a problem with it.


Data is not the plural of anecdote.



What the hell is that supposed to mean?

________
"None of you understand. I'm not locked up in here with you. YOU'RE locked up in here with ME." - Walter Kovacs, A.K.A. Rorschach.
Gord Horton Oct 05, 2006, 08:02pm EDT Report Abuse
>> 
These are the same old discussions that happened when XP came out and everyone was required to activate it. Well it is several years later and everyone is using XP!!! Microsoft has the upper hand and always will because they don't care what is said on these forums or whether or not people will upgrade their present systems. Buying upgrades or even buying full versions of new operating systems is probably a small part of their revenue. If you want to apply pressure to Microsoft then you may want to go after the big companies like Dell, HP and IBM who sell prebuilt computers systems and use Microsoft's latest OS. They will flood the market with Vista and in time it will become like XP is today. Most (about 90%) of consumers who are buying a new computer have no idea about OS's and all they care about is that the computer starts and runs their programs. Microsoft will make money, the computer companies that make prebuilt systems will make money and the consumer will be left with all the problems. Sound familiar? Vista is XP reborn.

John Ingram Oct 05, 2006, 08:20pm EDT Report Abuse
>> 
Gord Horton said:
These are the same old discussions that happened when XP came out and everyone was required to activate it. Well it is several years later and everyone is using XP!!! Microsoft has the upper hand and always will because they don't care what is said on these forums or whether or not people will upgrade their present systems. Buying upgrades or even buying full versions of new operating systems is probably a small part of their revenue. If you want to apply pressure to Microsoft then you may want to go after the big companies like Dell, HP and IBM who sell prebuilt computers systems and use Microsoft's latest OS. They will flood the market with Vista and in time it will become like XP is today. Most (about 90%) of consumers who are buying a new computer have no idea about OS's and all they care about is that the computer starts and runs their programs. Microsoft will make money, the computer companies that make prebuilt systems will make money and the consumer will be left with all the problems. Sound familiar? Vista is XP reborn.



Except this time it won't happen. Understandable for a home user to go from DOS to Win 3.1. But what, other than games, need more than what most people already have in their homes? Nothing. And in business, what office desk doesn't already have a PC that will do anything the company needs for a very long time? Sure, PC's blow up occasionally, but the reason the PC market is dying in front of our eyes is because there is no need anymore for the majority of desktop PC owners to upgrade at all if they bought their last PC less than 3 years ago. It used to be said that 'most home PC's are bought for gaming even if the buyer doesn't say so'. Well, we're in the world of DVD's and eating out more, and playstations and cable TV, and the fact is that statement is just not true any more.

So unless you believe in an absolutely huge increase in PC purchases in the next 12-18 months, both in the home and in business, I can't see how Vista is going to make much inroads. What it offers over XP is very little. Certainly not enough to upgrade from XP at the cost that Microsoft is quoting. Only gamers will be forced to get Vista and a DX10 card, and even then, with the cost involved, it will only be hard core gamers that will do it, and there's not enough of them any more to drive the market, like they used to 10 years ago.

Gord Horton Oct 05, 2006, 08:51pm EDT Report Abuse
>> 
John,
I quite agree with most of what you say. Xp has everything most people need. I was merely pointing out the fact that eventually the market will get flooded with Vista. Not necessarily in the next 12-18 months, but "eventually"( depending on sales if you want to use that as a measure). Microsoft can put anything in their software they want and sooner or later it will become the standard. One day they will stop the support for XP and force everyone to change.
Not a truer statement is made when you say there is no reason to switch to Vista except for gaming. The change may be slow especially if microsoft thinks that gaming features will do the trick. Cost is not the only factor here. My kids (12 & 13) both have computers but they and all their friends don't play games on computers. It is Xboxes, Ps2's and the like that they use for gaming. The new trend for our next generation of consumers?

Bitmap Oct 05, 2006, 09:34pm EDT Report Abuse
>> 
Gord Horton said:
My kids (12 & 13) both have computers but they and all their friends don't play games on computers. It is Xboxes, Ps2's and the like that they use for gaming. The new trend for our next generation of consumers?

Not necessarily true.I think there will always be the gaiming enthusiasts who love to push their machine (PC) to the max, comparing their rig to others, benchmarking, and then obliterating their enemies with the most basic of electronic perpherals: the keyboard and mouse.

Besides that, i know a lot of people who shy away from consoles, merely because of the lack of expandability. Although there are people who void their warranty by doing so, it is otherwise quite difficult to upgrade a console to play games more efficiently. Consoles are perfect for those who simply want to play games. But for those who want to play games, download stuff, work on homework/office work, and anything else, a console isn't the way to go, no matter how much the XBox 360, and it's yet-to-exist successors boast. Consoles are gaming machines, that's all. Computers are more like all-in-wonders. Gaming, and then some.

As far as the Windows Genuine Advantage thing, i don't get why people complain. Granted there have been issues where the innocent consumers have been accused as pirates, that's something to complain about. The thing that bothers me is the people who bitch and complain about WGA because it inhibits them from, say, downloading applications and add-ons from Microsoft's webstie, because their software is illegal. Sounds to me like that is in fact the job of WGA. So, how about, in order to stifle the WGA popup warning on your Windows desktop, you go out and, hmm, now here's a concept, so pay attention, spend your hard-earned cash on a legal copy of Windows, and you'll never have to worry abiout it! It's an anti piracy measure that works. Oh, shoot, now we have to pay. Shucks. Do I risk the malware, spyware, viruses and such and go to a warez site to get my downloads? Or, should I pay for their product, and not have to worry about anything? The choice seems clear to me

________
"None of you understand. I'm not locked up in here with you. YOU'RE locked up in here with ME." - Walter Kovacs, A.K.A. Rorschach.
winegirl tori Oct 05, 2006, 09:56pm EDT Report Abuse
>> 
John Ingram wrote:
This is part of a trend that technology is allowing. From I-Pods designed not to work with any other types of files

John for your information, the only audio file type that can't play on an iPod is an M$ DRM protected WMA.
I can play mp2, mp3, mp4, aiff, aac, apple lossless, flac, ogg, au, QT, wav and probably a few others I forgot. All the other digital audio players are not as versatile as Apple's iPod.

t

Bitmap Oct 05, 2006, 10:01pm EDT Report Abuse
>> 
winegirl tori said:
John Ingram wrote:
This is part of a trend that technology is allowing. From I-Pods designed not to work with any other types of files

John for your information, the only audio file type that can't play on an iPod is an M$ DRM protected WMA.
I can play mp2, mp3, mp4, aiff, aac, apple lossless, flac, ogg, au, QT, wav and probably a few others I forgot. All the other digital audio players are not as versatile as Apple's iPod.

t


I love how off topic that was. :D

________
"None of you understand. I'm not locked up in here with you. YOU'RE locked up in here with ME." - Walter Kovacs, A.K.A. Rorschach.
Brendan Falvey Oct 06, 2006, 04:00am EDT Report Abuse
>> 
M$ the monster we all love to hate. Since the bean counter got hold of M$ they have even less sublty than Bill G. But look at the ewider problem not just focus on M$

Bill made computing available to the masses and made a fortune at it. It has over time significantly eroded the substantial position held by Unix based systems. Here was a tribe of squabbling prima donnas with little or no respect for the end user. Supersets of instructions that required recompilation. Interoperability, whats that! While they squabbled Bill steamrollered them. Customer service how far were you prepared to roll over. Consider the following while the discussion uses Aussie dollars the arghument is probably almost universal

At the dawn of the (IBM/Intel) PC era in the early 1980s a mediocre CAD system would set you back between AUD50000 and AUD100000. Half being hardware and half software and that was often only licensed not owned. This problem has been around longer than M$ IBM and Digital were masters of we've gotcha hooked process. Today a system with vastly more capable function will probably set you back between $5000 and $10000.

Apple produced a tied system but they were overpriced and the market eventually made them pay the price.

Today we have a vastly different market the top end of the market is dominated by gamers and multimedia workstations these did not exist in any great numbers 25 years ago (God is it that long ago).

I have yet to move to Linix but that needs to cater for the gamers. If it is such a critical issue for gamers get on the bandwagon and help develop that side of Linix.

We need all of them because if there is no Linix or apple (forget the proprietary Unix flavours) imagine M$ then and really have something to complain about

Part of the problem is that with the convergence of technologies for office communications and entertainment they have become to close to the masters of the copyright rip off the media companies whose attitude to the average member of the public is absolute arrogance. Consider Sony and the first rootkit they could have offerred you the choice to install or not install their copyright de encrytion software. Metaphorically if I did what they did to a woman I would be charged with rape.

It not just M$ its the whole twisted industry. Support the independents I remember when Bill was a renegade independent now he is the establishment. With the closer ties to the media industry with HDTV we must maintain diversity . The truth is probably more likely that the media industry is demanding some compliance so that they will licence Windows to play their pap to the masses. Its not about quality just whose got the biggest

I acknowledge M$ right to maintain their quiet enjoyment of the fruits of their labours but they really need to work on their customer relations


John Ingram Oct 06, 2006, 07:46am EDT Report Abuse
>> 

Bitmap Oct 06, 2006, 01:01pm EDT Report Abuse
>> 

________
"None of you understand. I'm not locked up in here with you. YOU'RE locked up in here with ME." - Walter Kovacs, A.K.A. Rorschach.
John Ingram Oct 06, 2006, 02:18pm EDT Report Abuse
>> 
I'll just say 'Bobby' this time! :)

You support my argument more than you think. because that is my whole point. People won't upgrade to a Vista/DX10 card system (notice I said DX10 card - because games are going to demand that card as well as the DX10) so PC game sales will be even lower next year than this year, just like this year is nearly 40% down on last year, and those sales will be so low and Vista will have such a low uptake at the start that they will not 'slow down', they will give up. They will go over to console, they will re-train programmers, they will not update their PC tools, PC gaming magazines will die, websites will take PC gaming off their pages as there will no news to report.

So nothing is going to 'slow down' - it's going to 'move on'. Don't forget part of the reason for low PC game sales is the 60% decline in PC product! So publishers are already giving up or moving on. The PC games market might just about struggle through next year if we see better product from the smaller independents and both the Wii and the PS3 don't do very good numbers on release. Then, and only then, will publishers still look on PC as a 'possibility' and may still support it in a small way, allowing for at least the possibility of a PC gaming renaissance - but of course the odds of that happening are incredibly small..

Reason Oct 06, 2006, 03:07pm EDT Report Abuse
>> 
Bobby Phillipps said:
Big Beavis said:
A_Pickle said:
Do I think WGA is good? Well, I don't necessarily think it's bad. For some, strange reason, I've never had a problem with it.


Data is not the plural of anecdote.



What the hell is that supposed to mean?


Pickle's experience is an anecdote - he personally has had no problem with WGA. This does not mean everybody with a legit copy of Windows has had no problems with WGA. Therefore, it's not right to extrapolate the experience of one to that of many. The flip side of that is that it's perfectly fair for Pickle to accept the WGA - why shouldn't he? It works properly for him, end of story.

MS does have a right to protect their product. However, intentionally reducing security features - a punitive measure - introduces the risk that false positives will harm legit customers, and that's where they are wrong. They either need to make damn sure there are NEVER any false positives (unlikely if not impossible, IMO), or else find a different, less- or non-punitive method of preventing unauthorized use of their product.

_________________
Ultima Ratio Regum
John Bailey Oct 07, 2006, 05:31am EDT Report Abuse
>> 
I'm quite surprised the gaming industry hasn't taken the lead on this. I remember the old days when people would explicitly run games under DOS instead of Windows to gain a performance advantage. With the clear performance advantage given by Linux, I really surprised that more games are not ported to the Linux OS.


People don't know Linux. How the hell do you install a game on Linux?


It varies. The most complicated way is to use the source code. But many software developers are using binary distributions. With some, you can just use the package manager. For free games and apps only I'm afraid, and they have to be included in the list of software supplied by the people who maintain that source. It can however be as easy as double clicking the executable which then installs everything. Linux may have a way to go, but its getting there much faster than you might think.

Why would game makers cater to less than 1% of the market? And who are you to say there'd be a performance advantage? Windows supports DirectX, OpenGL (and other API's, now since antiquated).


Its impossible to say even roughly what the user base of Linux is. It may be possible to make an educated guess based on the respose to surveys or server logs I suppose. Many have bought machines pre installed with Windows and then installed Linux, some get their copy from magazine cover disks, and some download or buy the disks, others get disks from friends. And then there are those who use old machines to run Linux when they don't meet the spec for the later versions of Windows and are not upgradeable to the required extent. So sales figures are meaningless. Macs can be quantified by the number of computers sold, but Windows and Linux can't because there is more than one OS for AMD/Intel based computers.

Linux does support OpenGL and a few others of it's own I think. Also, it is possible to run some games and Windows apps under Linux with Wine or Cedega on Linux to mimmic Windows systems to the software. By no means perfect, but getting better as time moves on.

From direct personal experience, I have used Neverwinter Nights on both a Windows XP machine and a Linux Fedora core 5 machine<same computer, different OS> The Linux version does indeed run faster. Possibly even bertter if more effort were put into making a more streamlined Linux client.

Windows has Windows Installer, which makes it pretty easy for people to get games installed on their systems. Linux does not. Windows has an advanced and fast driver model. Linux does not.


Linux also has installers. I seem to remember someone mentioning install shield for Linux. Linux driver support may not be at quite the same point as Windows, but it is getting better. Nvidia and ATI are both supporting Linux at the moment. I think Lenovo is also selling laptops with Linux. And as more people get exposure to it, they and more hardware vendors will come on board. Linux might very well become the gamer's OS if some of the stories I have been reading online about Vista's performance in games have any truth in them. I'll reserve judgement until Vista comes out and DX 10 is common enough to make it worthwhile for games to support it. For the next few years though, DX10 will be in limbo as people either stay with XP, wait to upgrade, or go elsewhere.

I will agree with you that not many people "know Linux" in the sense that it takes more effort to set things up and a little more effort to get things fixed when they go wrong if you are a long time Windows user. But for beginners on either system, it can be difficult. And some distros such as Linspire are making a major effort to solve this problem. Their click and run service has both free and commercial software available. Choose the software and wait for it to download and install its self. I wouldn't be surprised if most of the commercial places would be happy to provid a non click and run version with proof of purchase. They want to attract new customers, so are more likely to be interested in making life as easy as possible. And money from a Linux user is just as good as that from a Windows user.

Making a product to sell via normal retail outlets is incredibly expensive, but selling mail order or downloadable software is very cheap. Valve seems to be doing a fairly good trade this way. Back in the early days of home computing, many software companies started out as mail order only. Anybody remember Doom? It started off as a shareware company which later moved to packaged retail versions.

When did you last use Linux? I've been in the habit of trying it out whenever I get a new hard drive, so once every few years. The current crop of Linux distros seem to be pretty impressive. Far better than the last time I tried it. XP came out in 2001, while Linux has updates much more frequently, and users have the freedom to change distros and upgrade every chance they get if they so desire.

If they purchased a tower at an outstandingly low price, but it came with an illegitimate copy of Windows, then they should pay for the copy of Windows. They would've paid for it if they'd bought a computer with a legitimate one, anyways.


Depends... It could be a refurbished system. It is quite common for small businesses to buy job lots of ex corporate systems, wipe the drives and install a legit copy of Windows on it for less than the price of a new PC. The second hand laptop sector is particularly common. Its also quite possible to go to a small to medium system maker who will build to order and specify either a blank hard drive or a legit copy of XP OEM. Supplying dodgy software is a sure way to go out of business fast. Some may even do the retail version for a bit extra. Not everybody uses brand name machines. And not every small scale system builder is a crook.


Bitmap Oct 07, 2006, 02:58pm EDT Report Abuse
>> 
John Ingram said:
I'll just say 'Bobby' this time! :)

You support my argument more than you think. because that is my whole point. People won't upgrade to a Vista/DX10 card system (notice I said DX10 card - because games are going to demand that card as well as the DX10) so PC game sales will be even lower next year than this year, just like this year is nearly 40% down on last year, and those sales will be so low and Vista will have such a low uptake at the start that they will not 'slow down', they will give up. They will go over to console, they will re-train programmers, they will not update their PC tools, PC gaming magazines will die, websites will take PC gaming off their pages as there will no news to report.

So nothing is going to 'slow down' - it's going to 'move on'. Don't forget part of the reason for low PC game sales is the 60% decline in PC product! So publishers are already giving up or moving on. The PC games market might just about struggle through next year if we see better product from the smaller independents and both the Wii and the PS3 don't do very good numbers on release. Then, and only then, will publishers still look on PC as a 'possibility' and may still support it in a small way, allowing for at least the possibility of a PC gaming renaissance - but of course the odds of that happening are incredibly small..

Funny... I plan on upgrading as soon as, or shortly after, DirectX 10 cards are released, since I see no point in upgrading my card now with a new API out that today's cards dont support. I don't speak for everyone though, so who's to say who will and who won't upgrade?

Also, look at the trends. If I'm correct, the market for PC vs Console fluxuates. The console platform seems a bit more stable as far as its popularity. But the PC's popularity for games seems to go up and down. It rocked when Doom 3 was released, then steadily declined, until the first asthetically pleasing realtime 3D games were released, then declined again, and so forth. It's a series of surges. We're just waiting on the next one. :)

And yes, I do see exactly where you're coming from, but there are alternative views and possibilities, most of which, neither of us have probably thought of. :D

________
"None of you understand. I'm not locked up in here with you. YOU'RE locked up in here with ME." - Walter Kovacs, A.K.A. Rorschach.
some guy Oct 08, 2006, 11:43pm EDT Report Abuse
>> 
ITGL72 said:
I'm a gamer, DX10 is coming, I will need vista.

Thats the stupidest thing any one said in here. You are the people killing the computer industry. You are willing to give up rights TO PLAY A STUPID GAME! Get off your lazy ass and go learn Freebsd or Linux with Wine/Cedega for you can play DX10 games and not be stuck in a whore of an OS called Windows!


Hans Moleman Oct 09, 2006, 04:51pm EDT Report Abuse
>> 
Well unfortunatley MS will probably pull the same crap they did with Me. HP, Dell, and the other big brands will sell computers with Vista preinstalled. That way they'll force it on the public. If it really bombs it may dissapear the way Windows Me did after about a year. I seriously doubt the companies making games will force you to use Vista. It would be stupid for them to limit their audience. Even now many games will still run on a Windows 2000 and occasionally Windows 98 system.

I am truly baffled by people who claim gamers should switch to Linux. Aside from the excessive amount of time it takes to get Linux up and running, installing games is a pain in the a**. Some sites have instructions on how to install games in Linux, but those instructions vary from one distro to the next.

I tried to install NWN on my laptop while I was running Ubuntu and it was a massive waste of time. I followed the instructions as well as I could. The instructions were clearly for a different distro although it didn't specify which one. I'm sure I could have figured it out if I wasted a few more days screwing around, but why should I?

AMD Athlon64 X2 3800+
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