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/ Forums / To Vista or not to Vista, that is the question?
 

 
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Bitmap Feb 06, 2007, 05:12pm EST Reply - Quote - Report Abuse
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>> 
Daniel, that's kinda off topic, I'll send you a PM.

________
"None of you understand. I'm not locked up in here with you. YOU'RE locked up in here with ME." - Walter Kovacs, A.K.A. Rorschach.
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Daniel Ellis Feb 06, 2007, 05:25pm EST Reply - Quote - Report Abuse
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>> 
yeah, i forgot i could PM :P... Go vista!

Scumbag Blues Feb 06, 2007, 05:39pm EST Reply - Quote - Report Abuse
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Give no credit for guy trying to defend Vista. :D Just kidding.

Honestly, I don't think anyone should really complain about hardware compatibility issues because as of now, I'm using Vista RC2 (soon to be Premium) on a Celeron D machine with 512Mb of RAM and a FX5200. Of course, I can't use the Aero skin and gaming is extremely limited but if I can get Half-Life 2 working on it (albeit at 15fps) then most people should as well.

I never understood why there is this underlying notion of the instant "oh s***, I need to upgrade to use Vista which is $$$". This isn't true. I think most computers nowadays should be able to use Vista. By the way, you can purchase a PC from a "big box" company with Vista OEM for cheap if you really can't afford Vista standalone and you instantly have a computer capable of using Vista.

There are a lot of you that simply aren't giving Vista a chance which I think is quite sad. There is no reason to it. Now, if you gave solid reasons to your hate then I might re-consider but Vista was only released a week ago. Why are you expecting it to be flawless and brimming with driver support? Can you nay-sayers not remember the first week of Windows XP? How about 95?

Bottom line: Get out of here if all you are going to do is spout crap, especially biased, lacking research, inexperienced crap.

~

Intel i7 2600K @ 4.4GHz | Gigabyte P67A-UD4 | G.Skill Ripjaws DDR3-1600 4GB | XFX Radeon HD 6950
Bitmap Feb 06, 2007, 05:55pm EST Reply - Quote - Report Abuse
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Edited: Feb 06, 2007, 05:56pm EST

 
>> 
I think we scared the nay-sayers off, Dilbert. :)

Veteran HWA members FTW. :D

________
"None of you understand. I'm not locked up in here with you. YOU'RE locked up in here with ME." - Walter Kovacs, A.K.A. Rorschach.
Donmeister Feb 06, 2007, 06:31pm EST Reply - Quote - Report Abuse
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>> 
shaun magoon said:
VISTA MICROSOFTS BIGGEST BLUNDER..... THAT APPLE IS LOOKING MIGHTY TASTY


Okay, first of all, LOL!!!

Anyways, I have to say, seeing Vista in stores and on the net as cheap as it is, it does seem mighty tempting to just dive right in the pool and buy it. But I'm taking the wait and see approach. I've used WinXP for all this time and it runs so smooth. I shudder to think about the driver compatibility problems that I could have if I decided to install Vista. So if I have to wait 6 to 8 months, then no lost sleep there. That'll make it worth the wait when (or if...) they get all the bugs out, and have compatible hardware drivers for Vista.

Specs and components in profile...
phil Feb 06, 2007, 06:40pm EST Reply - Quote - Report Abuse
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i forgot to add, in my previous post

6. the driver compatiblity issue varies greatly between 32bit (x86) and 64bit (x64) varients of Vista. .. though thankfully a select few manufacturers have already gotten on the ball with driver development for XP x64.

---
can't access HWA unless I use a proxy... lol

pfft ..f**k that! (almost sounds like work)
Gerritt Feb 06, 2007, 07:22pm EST Reply - Quote - Report Abuse
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Several observations here:
1. The most seriously blighted software release by Microsoft has to be Bob, not ME, though ME was no great shakes.
2. The major issue with Vista seems to be with driver compatibility, though I've adopted XP 64 on my primary system, I've had to retain the XP Pro 32 bit OSs on other systems to give me full access to not only HW devices but pseudo devices, such as VPN connections and Adobe print to file (though this seems to have been resolved with Acrobat 8, there seems to be no fix for Acrobat 7).
3. Vista seems to be geared for the x64 market with multi-threaded applications, but as of yet the support for these applications/drivers seems to be minimal. Given past performance, it is hoped that as more interest is shown in the OS, the application and HW vendors will take the steps necessary to close the gap.
4. I can't get the sync conduit for PALM to work on any x64 platform. This seems to be a major oversight on the behalf of PALM as most of their products are used by early adapters, or have they become a commodity so don't care about that anymore?
5. The Processor manufacturers are focusing on multiple cores and not single core speed. A multi-core processor requires an OS that supports tasking assignments to these multiple cores, and applications that will multi-thread in a manner that supports proper utilization of these cores. Vista, by early indications is a better multitasking, multicore OS than XP.
6. I have a shelf full of application SW on CDs that will not work on Windows 2000, XP or Vista (I can never bring myself to throw anything out). This is a norm of the evolution of PCs, thier HW and SW. As more applications come to the new standard of multithreading there will come a time that there will no longer be any single threaded apps, except for the most basic (a standard print spooler for instance).
7. A good rule of thumb over the years has been not to adopt a new MS OS until it has been in the "wild" for a period of 6 months to a year, or until the first SP.

Having made these observations, and having utilized multiple RC versions of Vista, it is my expectation that at least one of my production systems will be converted to Vista 64 in the coming days (as soon as I get the media). I already have the patches for several of my applications downloaded for implementation, some of which will allow better functionality over my present XP 64 products, but I will suffer in other areas.
The biggest concern I have at this point is that there has been a class action lawsuit against NVidia about their Vista Drivers.

Gerritt

Ad Astra Per Aspera
(A rough road leads to the Stars)
We all know what we know, and everyone else knows we are wrong.
System Specifications in BIO
Feb 06, 2007, 07:56pm EST Reply - Quote - Report Abuse
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While I would recommend not upgrading right away for a business or lab machine, until Vista has proven itself, there's nothing wrong with an enduser being an early adopter. If you're wary about Vista's security, then don't make it your sole source of security. Use 3rd-party software and hardware to secure your network and computer.

I myself hated Windows XP when it was first released. I used Windows 2000 for at least a year after it came out.

MS Bob - haha. I forgot about that one.

Gerritt Feb 06, 2007, 08:10pm EST Reply - Quote - Report Abuse
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McFly said:
While I would recommend not upgrading right away for a business or lab machine, until Vista has proven itself, there's nothing wrong with an enduser being an early adopter. If you're wary about Vista's security, then don't make it your sole source of security. Use 3rd-party software and hardware to secure your network and computer.

I myself hated Windows XP when it was first released. I used Windows 2000 for at least a year after it came out.

MS Bob - haha. I forgot about that one.


McFly, you've helped to solidify the criteria for a early Vista adopter.
If you only have one system, or if you have 100s+, then hold off of Vista until it stablizes. If you do have multiple machines, and have one that can support the HW requirements, then convert...but know that you will need to have a x32 machine there for the backwards compatibility.

Gerritt

Ad Astra Per Aspera
(A rough road leads to the Stars)
We all know what we know, and everyone else knows we are wrong.
System Specifications in BIO
dark41 Feb 07, 2007, 12:34am EST Reply - Quote - Report Abuse
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>> 
The question asked by Sander when starting this thread, was "how's your mileage thus far?"

That's what most of these replies are about. Personal experience. There are the few posts saying they will/won't upgrade and haven't tried it, but those are off topic replies as I see it.

If you've installed Vista on a system(s) and had no problems, good for you. However, some of us have done substantial testing and have gotten different results. I'm not silly enough to test on one system and then recommend to everyone to get something because it worked for me. By the same token, even with all the testing I've done on different systems and all the problems that I've had, there will still be the few who have no problems and love Vista. I'd think system builders that have actually installed Vista to several different hardware/software configurations will have a better idea of what to expect than a home user with only 1 or 2 configurations to work with. Not that the home user's experience is any less noteworthy, but its hardly an all-encompassing view. Bottom line is that its a hit and miss situation right now for hardware. Software is more black and white, but we're still finding programs that have compatibility problems every day.

I've run Beta 2 and RC1 for over 4 months prior to running RTM versions of Business and Basic. We've used 10 different systems for testing, but the system in my signature is the primary guinea pig. Hardware issues aside, most software is tested on this system.

You bet that I've been reading all I can find about it on the internet, including this forum. Approximately 80% of the reviews are bad, while even the 20% of good ones always list problems. My own review would be on the bad side for sure, due to my own experience with Vista. Information = knowledge. I really don't care if it impresses a long time poster of HWA or not. The more information, the better informed we all are. Common sense dictates that it all be taken with a grain of salt, but then common sense is no more common than reading comprehension. Some of these replies highlight the lack of reading comprehension of users. Oh well, their problem.

While XP and all previous versions of MS OS's were complete installs, Vista is an image of an OS that is provided on a DVD. This is why your hard drive needs to be formatted for a complete install. Vista 'adapts' your configuration to work with it, rather than install the necessary drivers/etc to work from scratch. This is also part of why its a system resource hog. Its also why drivers for all hardware can't be included with the OS as it would never fit on a DVD. This is some engineer's idea of a better system. It takes MS out of the driver support altogether. Well my opinion is that its an idiotic approach that creates more headaches for the end user. While MS makes their operating systems and programs more and complex and resource dependent, the bulk of end users will only upgrade their entire system when it fails. This might be 5 to 10 years from the date of purchase. Try finding driver support for your 10 year old system from the manufacturer. It usually can't be done. A minority of users may care enough to upgrade their hardware to incorporate these new features.

The thing is, the end user should have all the knowledge up front about what hardware and software needs to be upgraded BEFORE they spend the money on Vista. This is something that MS has shown no inclination to provide. The "minimal" requirements will allow you to start Vista. They will not allow all of the features to run, nor any other resource dependent software to run. I haven't seen that information on the MS site yet. Even the "recommended" requirements will not allow everything to work under all conditions. As long as this information is provided up front, I have no problem with the end user deciding to buy Vista regardless of their situation for hardware/software.

EG: Using AutoCAD on your system? Better check out the problems with OpenGL on Vista before you buy. Reports of up to 85% slower with Vista which, as any engineer will tell you, is not acceptable.

While 98 had some driver issues when it first came out, 2k did a little better job at supporting hardware, and XP did a much better job at including driver support for hardware. Vista is a giant step backwards in this department. Software has usually been left up to the manufacturer to provide support, but not always the case with hardware drivers. In my opinion, leaving driver support up to the manufacturer is not acceptable. No 60 year old lady is going to be able to understand the upgrade requirements for Vista, let alone prepare her system with updated drivers. Many people only start the computer and double click icons, which is the extent of their knowledge. Until MS understands this and makes upgrades seamless, they'll struggle to attract the biggest market share which is the average home user.

Can't remember the last BSOD I had on XP. Well I've had several already on Vista Business. More stable? Apparently not.

I've also been using the Vista Upgrade Tool while it undergoes beta testing. It still isn't accurate (if it even runs without crashing), which is why its a beta. Every day they're finding more and more problems with compatibility. Some things that are listed as compatible, aren't. Its a work in progress. I think all this should have been done before releasing the OS for retail sales.

So from a business perspective (a system builder who has to support customer systems), Vista is not worth recommending to our customers at this point in time for us. Nor is it worth the 60 year old home user to upgrade to Vista just to look at their picture collection. The advantages aren't that great, and the potential headaches are numerous.

Of course this forum consists mainly of members who are enthusiasts, which doesn't represent the average computer user. By all means, try Vista at your own risk. But don't expect that just because something works on your system that it will work on all systems. Computers aren't Macs with all the same hardware in them. This is MS's biggest advantage over Mac, that they can work with 3rd party hardware/software. Windows is a much more complex OS than any Mac OS. Its also why MS has more problems than Mac, since its not tied to only Mac hardware/software. As Macs become more Intel/MS compatible, they'll have their own growing pains to get past.

So you want to upgrade? XP Home can only be upgraded to Vista Basic. Since Basic does not offer the Aero-Glass interface and has no more security features than could be offered in a service pack for XP, there is no good reason to spend the money for performance nor aesthetics. I've also read where users think they're going to try an upgrade and then go back to XP if they don't like Vista. Truth is that you void the XP key when you upgrade to Vista, so that's not happening. The only good reason to upgrade from XP home to Vista Basic would be because you want Vista, regardless of the cost and lack of perks. If you want a better version of Vista you'll have to buy the complete retail OS and format your hard drive(s) to copy the image.

You need Business or Ultimate version to connect to a domain. Any small businesses or home users using a server will be required to upgrade to the more substantial versions or do without their current network configuration. Now at least you get the added security features, which by most evaluations to date are less than spectacular. But if you're one of those that thinks every little bit is worth it, then this upgrade may be worth it to you.

Am I anti-MS? Not even close. I just call them as I see them. We run Novell Server 10 and desktop, Linspire, 2k, XP Home and Pro and '03 Small Business Server. We'll build systems with any OS that a customer requests. I just want them to know the benefits/disadvanges/potential problems up front. Its when they ask me for my opinion/recommendation that I'll steer them clear of Vista for the time being.

EX38-DS5
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Stuart K Feb 07, 2007, 10:05am EST Reply - Quote - Report Abuse
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DsL.Dilbert said:
I don't understand why people are so negative about Vista. First, the skin and functionality similarity to OS X is not a result of copying at all. Vista was in the works earlier than OS X was but it was known as "Longhorn" way back then.


I think your timeline is a bit off. XP's "Luna" interface was a hurried response to Mac OS X. Longhorn's UI was developed well after OS X's Aqua UI.


Second, it is not the fault of Microsoft if driver support is sparse because the other companies haven't gotten off their collective @$$es and have support for it as soon as it is released especially considering that Beta 2, RC1 and RC2 have been out for a while.


MS should not have released the product without proper driver support. They had all the drivers in 32-bit XP and Win 2003, so they could have ported them to Vista. Instead, MS went limp on supplying needed drivers at the time 64-bit XP was released.


Lastly, I don't have much experience about hardware support for Vista but I know for a fact that all my computers have worked using it, they are all in my bio.


I guess you're just special. :)


So, to Vista or not? Maybe it is a little too early to answer that question but there is only one way from here on: up.


No, the way from here on is _over_. Over to Mac OS X or Linux. :)


Dublin_Gunner Feb 07, 2007, 11:01am EST Reply - Quote - Report Abuse
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Stuart Krivis said:

MS should not have released the product without proper driver support. They had all the drivers in 32-bit XP and Win 2003, so they could have ported them to Vista. Instead, MS went limp on supplying needed drivers at the time 64-bit XP was released.

No, the way from here on is _over_. Over to Mac OS X or Linux. :)



Firstly, drivers cannot be merely 'ported' over. You obviously dont know, but Vista has a new driver model, and has removed the HAL (hardware abstraction layer), so drivers must be coded from the ground up for Vista.

Also, why would you go to Mac OS X or Linux just because you have pet peeves against Vista (none of which you've stated). Simply stick with XP if thats the case.

If you think Vista is difficult to get set up, install Linux. Be my guest. Good luck getting most of your windows based software to work, at least at a decent performance level.

Lancool PC K62
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Dublin_Gunner Feb 07, 2007, 11:05am EST Reply - Quote - Report Abuse
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Edited: Feb 07, 2007, 11:51am EST

 
>> 
lol @ below!!

Internet Gremlins have been busy again...

Lancool PC K62
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phil Feb 07, 2007, 11:49am EST Reply - Quote - Report Abuse
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DOUBLE POST.. wow, you realy got him frag'led up!

Stuart Krivis said:
MS should not have released the product without proper driver support. They had all the drivers in 32-bit XP and Win 2003, so they could have ported them to Vista. Instead, MS went limp on supplying needed drivers at the time 64-bit XP was released.


NO microsoft did NOT have all the drivers they needed for WINXP 32bit (x86) when they released it.. as a matter of fact they probly had the same amount of driver support back then as they do now for VISTA 32bit (x86)...

.. you can't just snap your fingers and a driver is created ! .. it has to be coded.. one driver for each individual product on the market... guess what, there's millions of 'em ..
..sure some products use the same chip, and CAN use the same driver, and sometimes they do, but sometimes they DONT.. because a proprietary piece of software needs something in that manufactueres driver (DLink Airplus G for example)

.. so just as back then (winxp release) microsoft has done a great job of driver support, and now the manufactures that insist on dragging their heels have to finally bite they bullet, quit procrastinating, and offer vista support. yes i realise some will intentionally never, to force you to spend money.. but it's their loss.. as customers that are forced to upgrade will surely look to another company.

So if you want to move to a MAC, or run linux .. go right ahead.. btw, what version of linux best suits your needs.. and why ? .. that's an off topic question so feel free to PM the answer, and i'll tell you why you're wrong again in private.

---
can't access HWA unless I use a proxy... lol

pfft ..f**k that! (almost sounds like work)
Stuart K Feb 07, 2007, 12:06pm EST Reply - Quote - Report Abuse
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Phil verhey said:


NO microsoft did NOT have all the drivers they needed for WINXP 32bit (x86) when they released it.. as a matter of fact they probly had the same amount of driver support back then as they do now for VISTA 32bit (x86)...


I am hearing far more complaining from people in the industry about lack of driver support with Vista than I did with 32-bit XP.


So if you want to move to a MAC, or run linux .. go right ahead.. btw, what version of linux best suits your needs.. and why ? .. that's an off topic question so feel free to PM the answer, and i'll tell you why you're wrong again in private.


At home I have already done away with Windows.

I don't really need to consult with you to determine whether Linux works or not. ;)

Bitmap Feb 07, 2007, 01:13pm EST Reply - Quote - Report Abuse
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Stuart Krivis said:
Phil verhey said:


NO microsoft did NOT have all the drivers they needed for WINXP 32bit (x86) when they released it.. as a matter of fact they probly had the same amount of driver support back then as they do now for VISTA 32bit (x86)...


I am hearing far more complaining from people in the industry about lack of driver support with Vista than I did with 32-bit XP.


You obviously don't get it. Lack of drivers is not Microsoft's fault, it's the fault of the hardware manufacturer. It isn't Microsoft's responsibility to make sure every last piece of hardware works with their operating system. Again, that's the manufacturer's issue. I get sick and tired of people complaining about Microsoft, when this isn't even Microsoft's fault. Cut it out, people.

________
"None of you understand. I'm not locked up in here with you. YOU'RE locked up in here with ME." - Walter Kovacs, A.K.A. Rorschach.
Bitmap Feb 07, 2007, 01:22pm EST Reply - Quote - Report Abuse
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Stuart Krivis said:
No, the way from here on is _over_. Over to Mac OS X or Linux. :)
Your loss. Emulation can't solve all your Linux problems, and Mac... well, just lemme know, I've got some medicine for your impending headache. ;)

________
"None of you understand. I'm not locked up in here with you. YOU'RE locked up in here with ME." - Walter Kovacs, A.K.A. Rorschach.
Scumbag Blues Feb 07, 2007, 01:24pm EST Reply - Quote - Report Abuse
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He also doesn't seem to understand that driver's are quite extensive in coding and being able to have drivers out on a dime that works well with few flaws is difficult.

Yes, Vista has been out for awhile, at least the Beta 2, RC1 and RC2, but companies also have to support drivers still using 32-bit and x64.

In about one year, I'll bet very few will have anything to complain about Vista.

By the way, you don't even give any reasons for your disliking of Vista which is nonsense in this world of point, proof, comment...

~

Intel i7 2600K @ 4.4GHz | Gigabyte P67A-UD4 | G.Skill Ripjaws DDR3-1600 4GB | XFX Radeon HD 6950
Stuart K Feb 07, 2007, 01:34pm EST Reply - Quote - Report Abuse
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Ok, all you Microsoft cheerleaders are exactly right. I see there's no point in trying to discuss anything. :)


phil Feb 07, 2007, 01:37pm EST Reply - Quote - Report Abuse
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>> Re: Re: To Vista or iojpl

---
can't access HWA unless I use a proxy... lol

pfft ..f**k that! (almost sounds like work)

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