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  Re: To Vista or not to Vista, that's the question? 
 
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John Ingram Feb 06, 2007, 09:18am EST Reply - Quote - Report Abuse
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This is a grab for money where generally speaking there is no money. Energy costs, including oil, taxes, etc and the global economy have all come into prominence since XP was first released. This is going to be the early 90's all over again, when the pentium and cd drive came along. All the hardware and software companies jumped onto the technology expecting to make a killing as first gamers upgraded and then brought everyone else along. But it was too high a jump, too expensive a jump, and gamers did not rush out and upgrade and others did not follow them. Hence the severe downturn and the market consolidation in the mid 90's.

We are in the same situation now. Most gamers, that drive the market, are going to wait. For them it is a $500 spend for the OS and a DX10 card, for many of them it is a more powerful CPU and more ram as well, so they will wait a year or so and buy a new PC. It will be so much cheaper. Given the downturn in home PC sales we have already seen, this 'forced delay' will have major impacts. More and more PC gamers are going to console and so they are not the driving force for new technology they used to be. The average home PC owner is a lot more savvy, and the customer base is not going to go down this Vista plus card or even new PC road for quite a while.

The problem is PC gaming is just too expensive now that there is not the word of mouth from gamers to the general public any more. The drivers of technology are so few now, they are not the drivers of technology.

I think we are going to see how different the home market truly is with the release of Vista, and I don't think it is going to be happy reading, whether your Microsoft, a PC gamer, or just a PC household.


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SuPeR Xp Feb 06, 2007, 09:23am EST Reply - Quote - Report Abuse
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>> Re: Re: To Vista or not to Vista, that's the question?
I highly recommend Vista, BUT only if you Dual-Boot with another OS like Windows XP Pro or MCE 2005. Because if you run into a driver issue, you can always restart & go into the more stable OS ;)

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John Ingram Feb 06, 2007, 10:00am EST Reply - Quote - Report Abuse
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>> Re: Re: To Vista or not to Vista, that's the question?
There you go - Dual Boot. Yes, for the people that will leave messages on this forum, yes. But as I say, hardcore PC gamers are a dying breed and more and more of the PC games market is casual gaming, and casual gamers don't know about dual-boot and all the rest!

The market is already changing, let's face it. Neverwinter Nights 2, a game released in November of last year (in other words, still a 'new' title') was thrown out of the top 10 U.S. PC games chart a couple weeks ago by a casual puzzle game called 'Bejeweled 2'. It wasn't even a new entry, it was a re-entry! A re-entry of a casual game selling enough to knock a 12 week old 'hardcore' game out of the chart. It's from small signs like this you can see the market changing! The hardware demands of PC gaming is forcing more and more PC owners down the road of retro gaming or independent casual games, all those games that don't require the constant hardware/OS upgrading. This is the market Vista is trying to sell into. And 2007 is nowhere near like the market was in 2001 when XP came along.For a start, eBay didn't have a specific retro gaming section! (A sure sign of the growth of it!)

Alex-E-C-396 Feb 06, 2007, 11:06am EST Reply - Quote - Report Abuse
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>> Re: Re: To Vista or not to Vista, that's the question?
If you buy a computer strictly for games then you have an ignorant purchase. Go buy one of those bloody game machines, PS-3, X-BOX 360, WII etc. A computer is a serious work machine it just happens top be able to play games which are all very nice games. How long do you think it will be before they release a game that is only compatibile with VISTA? Besides the main reason is it will probablly require a 64bit capable processor and the DX10 or what ever that graphics standard is. Just be happy that there is a new operating system out. Give it six to eight months and let the majority of the unaccounted bugs breakout and get solved. Just think how nice it will be one year from now and there Intel or AMD will have a 256 or 512 bit CPU released.

Alexander E. Calvo
alex-e-c@sbcglobal.net
Patricio Villablanca Feb 06, 2007, 12:41pm EST Reply - Quote - Report Abuse
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>> Re: Re: To Vista or not to Vista, that's the question?
Maybe we must see the new OS with another vision. The new Microsoft's OS Vista definitely is not for gamers. I have probed the two beta versions and now the final version "ultimate" and the graphic card drivers cannot be changed for a most recently one. The enterely OS failed, so the GUI depends enterely from the correct microsoft's vista driver. All is slow and relentized when you update it. The most latest PC games need the latest directX version installed and with? yes, with the last driver version of your graphic card. Is a real trouble if you think spend 200 dolars in the new OS. I am a good gamer, PC gamer and system engineer. I spend a lot of money in graphic cards, memories, hard disc, internet broad band and all that a PC gamer needs. But, in the last christmas, i give to my son a XBOX. All the games came in DVD, you dont need install nothing, spend static hard disk space, dont need spend in hardware tuning and the best, the games runs fluid and without errors from directx controller o driver controller. The life of the gamer is so easy with the new generation of consoles, all works, good and wonderful. This is the right way. Play and only play. Focus on your business man!

John Ingram Feb 06, 2007, 03:01pm EST Reply - Quote - Report Abuse
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>> Re: Re: To Vista or not to Vista, that's the question?
Problem with consoles is the way games are written, the difference between Morrowind and Oblivion or Deus Ex versus Deus Ex 2. Without a keyboard everything has to be simplified, the games are simplified, great adult adventures like The Longest Journey or Syberia would not be written for console, because the small publishers that released them could not afford the costs of the console license. Can you imagine Freedom Force or Gabriel Knight or Maniac Mansion or X-Com ever having appeared in a console only world?!

That's the problem. There is no reason why PC gaming could not cost the same as console gaming. Half Life 2 and Far Cry have perfectly good graphics for today's gaming market, and they would run on today's PC's because they originally came out 2-3 years ago. So why aren't those engines still being used to produce great games? It doesn't take much. All it will take is for the PC gaming industry to license these engines cheaply to independent labels and guarantee to publish the games prodoced.

EA and other large publishers could easily afford to set up an independent label, fund them $5 million and say 'right, produce four games with that money, and we get first choice. We don't publish you can go and find another publisher, or publish it yourself and we'll take a cut. But we get first option.' That would help generate original content, would make games cheaper to produce and therefore have a range of titles released by major publishers with their distribution clout that would be more likely to be original and would be able to run on today's PC's. That would broaden the market and make it much more successful.

It just needs some thinking out of the box. Major game publishers: E-mail me! :)

CrAsHnBuRnXp Feb 06, 2007, 03:10pm EST Reply - Quote - Report Abuse
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Edited: Feb 06, 2007, 03:11pm EST

 
>> Re: Re: To Vista or not to Vista, that's the question?
Alex-E-C-396 said:
If you buy a computer strictly for games then you have an ignorant purchase. Go buy one of those bloody game machines, PS-3, X-BOX 360, WII etc. A computer is a serious work machine it just happens top be able to play games which are all very nice games. How long do you think it will be before they release a game that is only compatibile with VISTA? Besides the main reason is it will probablly require a 64bit capable processor and the DX10 or what ever that graphics standard is. Just be happy that there is a new operating system out. Give it six to eight months and let the majority of the unaccounted bugs breakout and get solved. Just think how nice it will be one year from now and there Intel or AMD will have a 256 or 512 bit CPU released.

Dont even go there man. I build computers around heavy gaming and so do most people here. Saying that a computer is just a serious work machine is a load ofs**t.

How long do you think it will be before they release a game that is only compatibile with VISTA?


Its called Halo2. Supposed to be here in the Summer I believe. Same with Crysis. (based on DX10) Halo 2 is based on DX9 still but a Vista exclusive.

It sounds like you have no clue what you are talking about. Vista comes in both 32-bit and 64-bit.

Just think how nice it will be one year from now and there Intel or AMD will have a 256 or 512 bit CPU released.


Are you out of your f**king head? There is no plans (that I am aware of ) where Intel and or AMD will have a 256 or a 512bit CPU.s**t, there isnt even plans for a 128bit yet. You have no clue what you are talking about.

Bitmap Feb 06, 2007, 03:25pm EST Reply - Quote - Report Abuse
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>> Re: Re: To Vista or not to Vista, that's the question?
Alex-E-C-396 said:
If you buy a computer strictly for games then you have an ignorant purchase. Go buy one of those bloody game machines, PS-3, X-BOX 360, WII etc. A computer is a serious work machine it just happens top be able to play games which are all very nice games. How long do you think it will be before they release a game that is only compatibile with VISTA? Besides the main reason is it will probablly require a 64bit capable processor and the DX10 or what ever that graphics standard is. Just be happy that there is a new operating system out. Give it six to eight months and let the majority of the unaccounted bugs breakout and get solved. Just think how nice it will be one year from now and there Intel or AMD will have a 256 or 512 bit CPU released.


First, I build a computer based heavily around gaming. Granted, I do other things with the comptuer, but the focus is gaming. Now, consider the vast amount of games released specifically for the PC. They aren't available for any console system. Dawn of War, The Half-Life series (Don't get me started, HL2 for Xbox wass**t) Command & Conquer, Flight Simulator, Railroads, and a vast many more.

Second, 64-bit is just now starting to become more mainstream, but the majority of the public is still on 32-bit. It'll be a while before 32-bit is completely obsolete.

CrAsHnBuRnXp hit the nail on the head. Halo 2 will be a Vista-only game, along with any other game that requires DirectX 10. Crysis comes to mind...

As far as bugs that aren't accounted for, they had a public beta system which has been mentioned countless times, which was designed to help make the Vista experience better, as well as hammer down all the bugs and loose ends. Hence, Vista is almost bug free. I say almost, because they'll probably find something, but for now, it's virtually bullet-proof.

256 or 512-bit... WHAT?? You have no idea what you're talking about. Look at how long 32-bit has been around. Look how long it's taking 64-bit to catch on. A year??? Please. I say another 5 at the VERY least until 128-bit is even created.

See, you kinda have to know what you're talking about before you spew what you (think you) know.

________
"None of you understand. I'm not locked up in here with you. YOU'RE locked up in here with ME." - Walter Kovacs, A.K.A. Rorschach.
John Ingram Feb 06, 2007, 03:41pm EST Reply - Quote - Report Abuse
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>> Re: Re: To Vista or not to Vista, that's the question?
To Bobby and crashburnxp: I think it's called sarcasm.

What he's trying to say is that you constantly need to upgrade to the latest hardware to be able to keep up with PC gaming and so you wait for prices to come way down and stay a year or two behind, playing retro or independent games in the meantime and buying those Crysis and Halo 2 games on $9.99 budget, or you take the other route and have to really have a top end very expensive PC that has all the knobs on that you upgrade almost yearly. Or, more simply, you buy a console.

More and more PC gamers are taking the former route, but playing retro games and buying independent games and buying games like Crysis and Halo 2 on budget a year after their release doesn't generate any cash for the big AAA publishers. All meaning PC gaming as we know it is changing in front of our eyes! Vista and DX10 will only speed this change.

Bitmap Feb 06, 2007, 03:56pm EST Reply - Quote - Report Abuse
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>> Re: Re: To Vista or not to Vista, that's the question?
The effect of this would be a decrease in the acceleration of game requirements. Face it, since the releases of Doom 3 and FarCry, the requirements for a computer game today have increased exponentially. The average consumer cannot keep up, only the money backed enthusiast. So, the increase would level out, everyone would catch up, then surpass, and then requirements would skyrocket again. The industry isn't changing right before our eyes, we're simply seeing a different part of the cycle.

________
"None of you understand. I'm not locked up in here with you. YOU'RE locked up in here with ME." - Walter Kovacs, A.K.A. Rorschach.
CrAsHnBuRnXp Feb 06, 2007, 04:00pm EST Reply - Quote - Report Abuse
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>> Re: Re: To Vista or not to Vista, that's the question?
To Bobby and crashburnxp: I think it's called sarcasm.

Well if it were, then he should state so. Otherwise, it is hard to tell what is serious and what is sarcasim on the net.

What he's trying to say is that you constantly need to upgrade to the latest hardware to be able to keep up with PC gaming and so you wait for prices to come way down and stay a year or two behind, playing retro or independent games in the meantime and buying those Crysis and Halo 2 games on $9.99 budget, or you take the other route and have to really have a top end very expensive PC that has all the knobs on that you upgrade almost yearly. Or, more simply, you buy a console.


Or what you could do, is save up for a PC and buy parts that will last you 4-5 years so that way you do not have to worry about it. My Opty 165 with an 8800GTS will last me for around that time. The most I will have to do is upgrade my ram to another 2GB. A console will never compete to a PC EVER.

More and more PC gamers are taking the former route, but playing retro games and buying independent games and buying games like Crysis and Halo 2 on budget a year after their release doesn't generate any cash for the big AAA publishers. All meaning PC gaming as we know it is changing in front of our eyes! Vista and DX10 will only speed this change.

If you cant afford to have the parts to play games on a PC, so be it. But you do not need to drag down an entire OS and "hate" microsoft for something you cant afford. Which in turn, may lead you to buying THEIR console which is a hell of a lot better than a PS3. Thats for another threaded topic though.

Bitmap Feb 06, 2007, 04:03pm EST Reply - Quote - Report Abuse
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>> Re: Re: To Vista or not to Vista, that's the question?
I forgot to point out.

Alex-E-C-396 said:
A computer is a serious work machine it just happens top be able to play games which are all very nice games.


No, a computer does not have one single designated purpose today. It did at its birth, but not anymore. A computer can do office work, sure. It can edit photos and pictures. Fine. It can surf the web and instant message. Cool. It can play games. Wicked. The PC is a multi-faceted piece of technology. It can play games, amongst other things, but it does not excel at any one task. That's the beauty of the PC market. Multi-purpose.

________
"None of you understand. I'm not locked up in here with you. YOU'RE locked up in here with ME." - Walter Kovacs, A.K.A. Rorschach.
John Ingram Feb 06, 2007, 04:16pm EST Reply - Quote - Report Abuse
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>> Re: Re: To Vista or not to Vista, that's the question?
And of course the PS3 and 360 are going down that same multi-function route - hence the price increases and the success of the Wii!!!

PC gaming sales are down, 2006 saw the fewest number of PC game releases, Computer Gaming World, the No.1 PC gaming magazine closing it's doors last November and more and more gamers refusing to buy into the ever increasing cost of being a PC gamer.

Oh, and I buy the best I can afford whenIi buy a new PC or upgrade, and I have never been able to keep the same PC for 4 years playing the new PC games! I think my 286, which I had for 6 years without upgrading was the last PC that I got that played practically all games for that amount of time. Maybe not the Wing Commanders of this world, but the X-Com's and the Railroad Tycoons and the gold box RPG's and the SSI wargames and RPG's etc, etc. If the average gamer really thought they could buy a PC that would last 4 years without having to touch it (as long as it wasn't $4,000!) i don't think you'd be seeing the PC games sales decline we have seen for the last 3 years and at the same time the growth in retro gaming and emulation gaming on the PC. Heck, go to Lemon64, a Commodore 64 website and the forums are as busy as here! And eBay wouldn't habve set up a retro gaming section on it's site unless it believes it's going to get a lot of commission from a lot of sales!

CrAsHnBuRnXp Feb 06, 2007, 04:34pm EST Reply - Quote - Report Abuse
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>> Re: Re: To Vista or not to Vista, that's the question?
And of course the PS3 and 360 are going down that same multi-function route - hence the price increases and the success of the Wii!!!


And look at how many people are hurting themselves with the Wii.

PC gaming sales are down, 2006 saw the fewest number of PC game releases, Computer Gaming World, the No.1 PC gaming magazine closing it's doors last November and more and more gamers refusing to buy into the ever increasing cost of being a PC gamer.


Yeah, the year 2006 was not a good year for PC games, but look at all the great titles that are coming out this year. HL2 Episode 2, Halo 2, Crysis, Spore, GRAW 2, C&C 3, Resident Evil 4, Alan Wake, UT3, and Time Shift just to name a few.

Oh, and I buy the best I can afford whenIi buy a new PC or upgrade, and I have never been able to keep the same PC for 4 years playing the new PC games! I think my 286, which I had for 6 years without upgrading was the last PC that I got that played practically all games for that amount of time. Maybe not the Wing Commanders of this world, but the X-Com's and the Railroad Tycoons and the gold box RPG's and the SSI wargames and RPG's etc, etc. If the average gamer really thought they could buy a PC that would last 4 years without having to touch it (as long as it wasn't $4,000!) i don't think you'd be seeing the PC games sales decline we have seen for the last 3 years and at the same time the growth in retro gaming and emulation gaming on the PC. Heck, go to Lemon64, a Commodore 64 website and the forums are as busy as here! And eBay wouldn't habve set up a retro gaming section on it's site unless it believes it's going to get a lot of commission from a lot of sales!

Now that video graphics for games are pretty much out of the way and have multiple options for CPU's, you could probably get away with keeping a PC for 4 years with little upgrades. Sure a part may die on you here and there and if you have the money, get something better. We all do it. I could probably get by with my dual core and 8800GTS for that length of time. All I need is another 2GB of RAM for gaming on Vista and Im set.

Bitmap Feb 06, 2007, 04:55pm EST Reply - Quote - Report Abuse
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>> Re: Re: To Vista or not to Vista, that's the question?
John, the popularity of games comes in surges. The primary reason PC sales were down is because of the recent release of 3 new consoles. So the consoles are in right now, but they fade, since PCs can be perpetually upgraded, and consoles are static. However, with time, PC will regain popularity, and then it will fall again with the newer consoles in about 3-4 years. It's just a series of surges. 2006 wasn't the best year for PC games also, because the developers were focusing on getting ready for the newest consoles. Think about it. Unless the company focuses solely on PC games (Valve and id) the games are going to suffer because the company has its eyes set on the new console.

________
"None of you understand. I'm not locked up in here with you. YOU'RE locked up in here with ME." - Walter Kovacs, A.K.A. Rorschach.
John Ingram Feb 06, 2007, 05:18pm EST Reply - Quote - Report Abuse
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>> Re: Re: To Vista or not to Vista, that's the question?
Bobby, I wish you were right, as a 20 year PC gamer, I wish you were, but PC gaming is now 50% down roughly since 2000, so there's a trend, not just one bad year. And home PC sales have been down 2 years running (at least here in the UK) and we had a pretty good PC year the years PS2 and X-box came out, at least in comparison, so a) it's not about just one year and b) it's not about new consoles, as that has happened before with different results to this time.

SuPeR Xp Feb 06, 2007, 08:28pm EST Reply - Quote - Report Abuse
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>> Re: Re: To Vista or not to Vista, that's the question?
That said, PC gaming will always be better then any console gaming. PC's are so upgradable & expandable.

The only reason why Console gaming is popular is because of there ease of use. Just plug & play, nothing to install. They are light & compact, and can easily be transportable anywhere you like. But they will also have graphical limitations which is the downside.

Example, the Playstation 3 suck big time.

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Stuart K Feb 07, 2007, 09:47am EST Reply - Quote - Report Abuse
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>> Re: Re: To Vista or not to Vista, that's the question?
Just to add a data point here...

I played some games like Wizardry and Castle Wolfenstein on the Apple ][, then Commander Keen on the PC. I also played Diablo briefly when my brother first bought a copy years ago.

Other than that, I don't use computers for games. (I don't own or use a Playstation or anything like that either.)

It's just not my cup of tea. :-)

This may give me a bit different viewpoint when evaluating Vista. (I also work in IT, so that shapes my opinions too.)

I plan to wait until I buy my next computer before getting Vista. It's likely to be a couple of years. In the meantime, the account I normally use on XP is not an admin account. :-)




John Ingram Feb 07, 2007, 09:54am EST Reply - Quote - Report Abuse
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>> Re: Re: To Vista or not to Vista, that's the question?
Your last PC game may have been Diablo, but I think your story is being repeated a lot nowadays, except others would say 'my last PC game was Far Cry', or my last PC game was 'Oblivion', as opposed to your 'Diablo'. The end result is the same, fewer people playing PC games and lots of people not getting Vista for at least a year.

ian elliott Feb 07, 2007, 05:39pm EST Reply - Quote - Report Abuse
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>> Re: Re: To Vista or not to Vista, that's the question?
Alex-E-C-396 said:
If you buy a computer strictly for games then you have an ignorant purchase. Go buy one of those bloody game machines, PS-3, X-BOX 360, WII etc. A computer is a serious work machine it just happens top be able to play games which are all very nice games. .


Serious Hardcore Gamers WILL buy a computer strictly for games. Look at the hardware out there for Gamers. 8800GTX and 8800GTS and R600 are not just for casual gamers ,these are High end hardware directed towards the hardcore gamer.

John Ingram Feb 07, 2007, 06:11pm EST Reply - Quote - Report Abuse
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Edited: Feb 07, 2007, 06:13pm EST

 
>> Re: Re: To Vista or not to Vista, that's the question?
Alex - problem is that even hardcore gamers with hardcore hardware are not getting hardcore games any more, so even they are having second thoughts! I mean Oblivion was dumbed down, most RPG's are becoming 'action rpg's' and action games are becoming 'action rpg's' and you don't get wargames or flight sims or anything that is hardcore any more - so why not save money and go console is what even hardcore gamers are saying, and on the side, thanks to DOSBox and VDMSound and much better free emulators, it is easier than ever to just play the DOS/Win95/Win98 games you were playing 5, 10 or 15 years ago, which patently more PC gamers are doing!

Hardcore gamers are not anywhere near the numbers they used to be. And their not even as hardcore. A PC gamer in 2000 bought 10 games a year, last year it was 6! I repeat the fact that a hardcore PC game 'Neverwinter Nights 2' was only in the U.S. PC game charts for a mere 9 weeks before being thrown out by a Re-Entry of a 2D puzzle game which had been out for 16 weeks! So now, a casual game after 16 weeks can outsell a hardcore game of 11 weeks. The first Neverwinter Nights spent 15 weeks in the top 10 and no puzzle game back then would ever sell enough to get in the top 10!

The market is changing, and I am not sure the industry really understands it all, which is why when asked one of the Crysis developers said that 'genre merging' would be good for PC gaming's future!!!


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