Please register or login. There are 0 registered and 1125 anonymous users currently online. Current bandwidth usage: 326.30 kbit/s December 18 - 03:49am EST 
Hardware Analysis
      
Forums Product Prices
  Contents 
 
 

  Latest Topics 
 

More >>
 

    
 
 

  You Are Here: 
 
/ Forums / Vista driver woes, update or upgrade?
 

  Re: Vista driver woes, update or upgrade? 
 
 Author 
 Date Written 
 Tools 
Continue Reading on Page: 1, 2, 3, 4, Next >>
Christopher Burke Mar 09, 2007, 12:15pm EST Reply - Quote - Report Abuse
Private Message - Add to Buddy List Replies: 65 - Views: 6105
It's perfectly easy - why the heck didn't Microsoft anticipate that not every hardware company would want the expense of writing new drivers - especially since they'd prob. have to tweak the drivers every time they hit another BETA version - and make Vista backwards compatible?

They did this with XP, too. There's a WINDOWS 98 compatibility mode, yet I have yet to find one piece of 98 software that doesn't crash or freeze when trying to use it. Why not keep the architecture for the drivers standard - they are, after all, the ones who create the standards!

The hardware companies did not have 'years to write new drivers'. Don't forget Vista was originally going to be Longhorn, it's been through more evolutionary changes than a runaway bacillus and the poor developers wouldn't have known which of the many BETAS they were writing drivers for - get it wrong and their equipment would have seized up anyway. They virtually had to wait until the final version was set in stone.

Yours in irritation (I'm not going to bother with Vista, it eats memory like a hog, nothing's compatible with it or will be for years, probably)

ulrichburke.


Want to enjoy fewer advertisements and more features? Click here to become a Hardware Analysis registered user.
CrAsHnBuRnXp Mar 09, 2007, 02:57pm EST Reply - Quote - Report Abuse
Private Message - Add to Buddy List

Edited: Mar 09, 2007, 02:59pm EST

 
>> Re: Re: Vista driver woes, update or upgrade?
Christopher Burke said:
Yours in irritation (I'm not going to bother with Vista, it eats memory like a hog, nothing's compatible with it or will be for years, probably)

While it is true that Vista is a memory hog, but later on down the road when more RAM becomes a standard, no one is going to worry about it. When we all have 8GB of RAM in our computers and running the latests OS, its going to be like running XP with 2GB of RAM. I dont know why everyone cant realize this and stop complaining about something that cannot be helped.

As for the incompatibility, you are incorrect. Every program that I use (aside from a few apps which are being worked on as I type this) work just fine in Vista. So saying that nothing is compatible with the OS and nothing will be for years to come is 100% False. There are plenty of users here that are running Vista myself included and we are getting along just fine.

In fact, read this: http://www.hardwareanalysis.com/content/topic/65317/

and this: http://www.hardwareanalysis.com/content/topic/65355/

marian smith Mar 09, 2007, 08:59pm EST Reply - Quote - Report Abuse
Private Message - Add to Buddy List  
>> Re: Re: Vista driver woes, update or upgrade?
When microsoft finally standardises on a decent device driver interface, they can complain otherwise tough. No one can expect a manufacturer to be jumping through MS hoops for each beta for a product that generates no revenue. Thats capitalism 101.

CrAsHnBuRnXp Mar 09, 2007, 09:17pm EST Reply - Quote - Report Abuse
Private Message - Add to Buddy List  
>> Re: Re: Vista driver woes, update or upgrade?
How do you expect anyone to beta test the OS then? Cant run it without the proper drivers.

dark41 Mar 09, 2007, 11:41pm EST Reply - Quote - Report Abuse
Private Message - Add to Buddy List  
>> Re: Re: Vista driver woes, update or upgrade?
Mark,
IMO, you're the one who doesn't get it. Do you deal with the average computer user on a daily basis? As a system builder, my point of view varies drastically to yours. Since I do deal with the average computer user every day, I know that your views aren't realistic to them.

2 gigs is not the norm for people using XP now, and I doubt very much that 8 gigs of RAM will be the norm for computers in the next 10 years. Most of our customers are running no more than 512mb RAM on XP. Its not uncommon to see 256mb with a 2 year old system on XP Home. The truth is that by the time motherboard support for 8gb of RAM becomes standard and prices for RAM become affordable, Vista will be nothing more than a memory (pun intended).

So the reason people keep complaining about Vista as it is now, is because they are stuck with the resources that are available to them now. Pipe dreams about what may or may not happen in the future have no relevence to the real world now.

Mark, you've been running Vista in some form for quite a while now, and still you don't have all the bugs worked out of it. Your computer knowledge is well above that of the average user. Do you really think that the average user would have the time or motivation to deal with all the issues you've had to resolve with Vista?

Your opinion seems to represent an enthusiast point of view. Enthusiasts are great. I'm one myself. However, enthusiasts only represent a very small niche in the computer owner world. The vast majority of computer users have very little hardware or software knowledge. They use the computer for surfing the internet, email, and storing pictures. Until you realize this, you will continue to be baffled by the complaints of your readers.

What makes the cost of new hardware and the OS itself worth it to the average computer user, whether it be update or upgrade?

These people don't know the difference between Adobe Flash Player and malware, so the 2nd guessing UAC installation popup isn't going to do them any good.

Since I have yet to see Windows Defender catch any malware, I think its safe to rule that out as a serious advantage too.

Do shinier pictures and translucent effect make Vista and necessary hardware worth twice as much money? Then they get to struggle through learning a new interface and trying to get their current printer and scanner working.

No, the average user will not see any advantage in bang for the buck with Vista.

Most people will never be able to afford a new system every 3 years which includes the latest technology for CPU and RAM to support the latest OS. Most people expect their PC to run for 10 years without needing any hardware modifications. Its ridiculous to think that they should be expected to upgrade their entire system just to surf the internet, store their pictures, and read email.

I guess you and I also have serious differences in how we define 'getting by'.

So Mark, do you have 5.1/7.1/8.1 sound and speakers on your computer? If so, does it work with Vista? Of course it doesn't. Will it ever work? Only time will tell, but that's a huge sacrifice for those of us who have serious money invested in our sound systems. Kind of defeats the purpose of having an entertainment system with an entertainment OS that doesn't support the hardware.

Have you got a working Internet Security Suite on Vista? I have yet to find one. Vista's firewall is no better than XP's, as it only blocks incoming traffic. Outgoing traffic is free to do as it pleases. No big improvement there either.

Most of our games still don't work correctly, if at all. I see that most of the FPS shoot-em-up games seem to work. Unfortunately that's not this family's thing. The racing games and sports games that we play don't enjoy the same functionality on Vista.

Sander's and your opinion is well documented that this is all the fault of 3rd party manufacturers for not providing driver support in a timely manner, instead of MS's for drastically varying the code to make the new drivers necessary and then not supplying them. You're entitled to your opinions, and I respect them even though I don't share them.

The security is repetitive to the point that most people will disable UAC, as I have. (Once you do this, have fun trying to install programs as the temp folder will error with not enough disc space, even though it has plenty. The work around is more work than re-enabling UAC for an install and rebooting.) For those who don't understand the difference between malware and legitimate software, the UAC is worthless anyway.

Eventually MS's 'intended Longhorn' will be released in all its glory and 3rd party manufacturers will again be forced to play follow the leader. Vista is not a necessary step in the development of a decent OS with tight security. Its a marketing ploy to keep MS's development team afloat while they develop the real deal, the one that Vista started out to be, the one with the new file structure and all the other bells and whistles that were deleted from Vista to get it to market in the interum. Is it any wonder that 3rd party manufacturers are in no hurry to get Vista driver support? With the system file changing, these 3rd party manufacturers have to write completely new programs from scratch. As one of these manufacturers, would you be spending this time and money supporting a soon to be extinct OS, or be spending those resources on something more relevant to the future of computers? Knowing full well that their next OS will require software to be completely rewritten for a new file system, knowing that Vista's file system will become extinct when the new OS arrives, and knowing that this is only a few years away, MS should have provided updated drivers for existing software/hardware on Vista. That, or MS shouldn't have stuck a troublesome OS on the market in the interum expecting 3rd party manufacturers to support it. Neither should consumers.

Bottom line is that while many of us have Vista on our computers, its far from working as it was designed to. If all you do is surf the internet and run MS programs, it works pretty well. Its pretty.

If you do much more than that, be prepared for some serious headaches. Its a system resource hog. It will become mature about the time that the next OS comes along (2-3 years are the current estimates). Getting by may be enough for some people, but the majority of people will be sorely disappointed if they pay for Vista and can't use half their other expensive hardware with it. At this point, Vista is only a valid option for those who have money to burn and extensive computer knowledge to get it working half-a$$ed, and are happy with that. Otherwise, you'd be better served to stick with what you have and wait for the next revolutionary OS from MS.

EX38-DS5
E8500@4.0GHz (445x9, 1.40v) TRUE Black
Corsair HX620W
2x2gb Kingston HyperX 9600
HIS IceQ4 HD4850
2X1TB F1s (RAID 0) XP Pro/Win7 Ult 64
Auzen X-Fi Prelude 7.1
Cambridge Soundworks 500w 5.1
G5, Antec 1200
Christopher Burke Mar 10, 2007, 02:42am EST Reply - Quote - Report Abuse
Private Message - Add to Buddy List  
>> Re: Re: Vista driver woes, update or upgrade?
Chris again!

Oh, MAN, have you ever said what I meant to say, far better than I could ever have said it! That's EXACTLY what I was getting at in my blurb - why should we have to use an operating system that needs twice as much power for us to do what we're doing right now? I'd like to see operating systems becoming SMALLER - many years ago (GAWD, I'm ANCIENT in computer terms <sob!>) I ran an entire hotel business on a BBC B and an Electron for someone! In those days, programming HAD to be tight, you just didn't have any memory or power to play with. But the software got the job done.

Nowadays, there's more memory and power, so you get 'fat' programs because the programmers know the machines' power will force the program along. No, I'm not advocating a return to DOS. I just, like you, don't see why every new operating system - which, after all, is just an interface to make programs easier to use - should become more important and more memory/power hungry than the last.

Thanks for the wonderful eloquence of your reply!

Chris.

CrAsHnBuRnXp Mar 10, 2007, 05:32am EST Reply - Quote - Report Abuse
Private Message - Add to Buddy List  
>> Re: Re: Vista driver woes, update or upgrade?
IMO, you're the one who doesn't get it. Do you deal with the average computer user on a daily basis? As a system builder, my point of view varies drastically to yours. Since I do deal with the average computer user every day, I know that your views aren't realistic to them.

Your making it sound like I have never worked on someone's PC before. I know excatly what its like. Trying to show a computer illiterate person how to operate their machine. I have had a customer have a hard time trying to learn how to check his email. Sometimes it just makes you want to slap them in the back of the head. So I know that there are computer illiterate people out there.

2 gigs is not the norm for people using XP now, and I doubt very much that 8 gigs of RAM will be the norm for computers in the next 10 years. Most of our customers are running no more than 512mb RAM on XP. Its not uncommon to see 256mb with a 2 year old system on XP Home. The truth is that by the time motherboard support for 8gb of RAM becomes standard and prices for RAM become affordable, Vista will be nothing more than a memory (pun intended).

2GB isnt used by everyone let alone 1GB. But most of the PC users out there are gamers and what not that need that 2GB+ of memory to achieve what they need to do. Who would have thought 5-10 years ago that we would be using 2-4GB now?

So the reason people keep complaining about Vista as it is now, is because they are stuck with the resources that are available to them now. Pipe dreams about what may or may not happen in the future have no relevence to the real world now.

Okay. If they are stuck with the resources they have now, then why bitch about an OS that you cant even run anyway? Let alone afford to upgrade to run it?

Mark, you've been running Vista in some form for quite a while now, and still you don't have all the bugs worked out of it. Your computer knowledge is well above that of the average user. Do you really think that the average user would have the time or motivation to deal with all the issues you've had to resolve with Vista?

Your right. I dont have all the bugs worked out. I still have yet to find the sweet spots of disabling garbage I dont need. Aside from that, there is a total of 4 (tops) apps/games (combo) that doest work yet. However, they are being worked on right now for Vista compatibility.

Your opinion seems to represent an enthusiast point of view. Enthusiasts are great. I'm one myself. However, enthusiasts only represent a very small niche in the computer owner world. The vast majority of computer users have very little hardware or software knowledge. They use the computer for surfing the internet, email, and storing pictures. Until you realize this, you will continue to be baffled by the complaints of your readers.

If they only need a comptuer to surf the web, check email, and store music and pictures, then why do they need Vista in the first place when XP will be just fine for them? Hell, 98 and 2000 can do that for them. (dont drag M$ support into it either)

What makes the cost of new hardware and the OS itself worth it to the average computer user, whether it be update or upgrade?

Who said it had to be? If their computer cant run it, either stick with XP or upgrade the computer so its Vista ready. Why go for Vista if your computer cant run it and then bitch about how much it sucks? (Vista)

These people don't know the difference between Adobe Flash Player and malware, so the 2nd guessing UAC installation popup isn't going to do them any good.

Okay? But it will more than likely p**s most users off becuase everything you try to do, it starts to scream at you.

Since I have yet to see Windows Defender catch any malware, I think its safe to rule that out as a serious advantage too.

Ive been saying that Windows Defender sucked since I used its first beta. It still sucks. And now that it's incorporated into Vista, when a user scans their comptuer, Microsoft can tell it to search for ANYTHING that is not considered "safe" and will delete it without the users knowledge or consent. I personally just disable the damn thing via services.msc. And yes, I realize that most users will not know how to do this let alone the fact that they do not know about what I just said above. So why worry them?

Do shinier pictures and translucent effect make Vista and necessary hardware worth twice as much money? Then they get to struggle through learning a new interface and trying to get their current printer and scanner working.

No, it doesnt. But its not like we can control that anyway. More people want things in an OS that appeal to the eye. They want eye candy. More features. Microsoft supplies that because of the demand. Then when they supply it, people bitch. If they dont, people bitch that the OS is to plain. So either way, M$ cant win.

No, the average user will not see any advantage in bang for the buck with Vista.

Of course not. So unless they buy a new computer from either Dell, HP, or the like, that has Vista on it, they can stick with XP on their computer because they have no reason to upgrade to it.

Most people will never be able to afford a new system every 3 years which includes the latest technology for CPU and RAM to support the latest OS. Most people expect their PC to run for 10 years without needing any hardware modifications. Its ridiculous to think that they should be expected to upgrade their entire system just to surf the internet, store their pictures, and read email.

No one is forcing them to buy a new computer all the time. The option is just there if they want it. If all they want to do is check mail or w/e, get a Mac or a Windows 98 machine.

I guess you and I also have serious differences in how we define 'getting by'.

Did Sander say this? Or did I? Because ATM, I have no clue what you are talking about.

So Mark, do you have 5.1/7.1/8.1 sound and speakers on your computer? If so, does it work with Vista? Of course it doesn't. Will it ever work? Only time will tell, but that's a huge sacrifice for those of us who have serious money invested in our sound systems. Kind of defeats the purpose of having an entertainment system with an entertainment OS that doesn't support the hardware.

No, I use headphones. And even if I did, the speakers would work just fine. Its the soundcard that needs a driver for the sound to work. Not the speakers. And to answer yoru question about "will it ever work", the answer is "more than likely." Also, like I keep stating and I wish people would understand this. Microsoft is NOT responsible for your hard ware and software not working. That is solely the responsibility of your hardware/software provider.

Have you got a working Internet Security Suite on Vista? I have yet to find one. Vista's firewall is no better than XP's, as it only blocks incoming traffic. Outgoing traffic is free to do as it pleases. No big improvement there either.

I dont use Security suites. I hate them. I just use AVG and Zonealarm along side AVG Anti-spyware, SpywareBlaster, and Ad-Aware SE 1.06. Does me just fine. Oh and CCleaner.

Most of our games still don't work correctly, if at all. I see that most of the FPS shoot-em-up games seem to work. Unfortunately that's not this family's thing. The racing games and sports games that we play don't enjoy the same functionality on Vista.

Again, thats not Microsoft's fault, thats the game providers.

Sander's and your opinion is well documented that this is all the fault of 3rd party manufacturers for not providing driver support in a timely manner, instead of MS's for drastically varying the code to make the new drivers necessary and then not supplying them. You're entitled to your opinions, and I respect them even though I don't share them.

Why should Microsoft have to work around third party manufacturers when its is THEIR OS. If anything, the 3rd party people are the ones that have to conform to Microsofts OS. Not the other way around.

The security is repetitive to the point that most people will disable UAC, as I have. (Once you do this, have fun trying to install programs as the temp folder will error with not enough disc space, even though it has plenty. The work around is more work than re-enabling UAC for an install and rebooting.) For those who don't understand the difference between malware and legitimate software, the UAC is worthless anyway.

I do not have this problem at all.

Eventually MS's 'intended Longhorn' will be released in all its glory and 3rd party manufacturers will again be forced to play follow the leader. Vista is not a necessary step in the development of a decent OS with tight security. Its a marketing ploy to keep MS's development team afloat while they develop the real deal, the one that Vista started out to be, the one with the new file structure and all the other bells and whistles that were deleted from Vista to get it to market in the interum. Is it any wonder that 3rd party manufacturers are in no hurry to get Vista driver support? With the system file changing, these 3rd party manufacturers have to write completely new programs from scratch. As one of these manufacturers, would you be spending this time and money supporting a soon to be extinct OS, or be spending those resources on something more relevant to the future of computers? Knowing full well that their next OS will require software to be completely rewritten for a new file system, knowing that Vista's file system will become extinct when the new OS arrives, and knowing that this is only a few years away, MS should have provided updated drivers for existing software/hardware on Vista. That, or MS shouldn't have stuck a troublesome OS on the market in the interum expecting 3rd party manufacturers to support it. Neither should consumers.

Any why shouldnt the 3rd party guys play catch up. Like I said before, they have to conform to Microsofts OS, not the other way around.

What are the programmers hired for then anyway? Thats what they do, they program code to make their software work with the OS. Either way, they are going to be sitting there typing at a keyboard writing code for it to work with an OS. That whole paragraph that I just quoted above is rubbish. (with the exception of some things such as the new FS deleted from Vista and what not)

Bottom line is that while many of us have Vista on our computers, its far from working as it was designed to. If all you do is surf the internet and run MS programs, it works pretty well. Its pretty.

Many of us here have it working just fine. Myself included. And like I have said for the thrid or fourth time, its not Microsoft that should be giving you the support, its your hardware/software supplier. And there are many people on this forum that will back me up in stating this.

If you do much more than that, be prepared for some serious headaches. Its a system resource hog. It will become mature about the time that the next OS comes along (2-3 years are the current estimates). Getting by may be enough for some people, but the majority of people will be sorely disappointed if they pay for Vista and can't use half their other expensive hardware with it. At this point, Vista is only a valid option for those who have money to burn and extensive computer knowledge to get it working half-a$$ed, and are happy with that. Otherwise, you'd be better served to stick with what you have and wait for the next revolutionary OS from MS.


Yeah current estimates. Ill give it another 5-6 years like they did with Vista.

If they pay for Vista, they should have done their homework and see if it would run first off. If they didnt, then that is their own fault.

I have computer knowledge, but more than likely not to the extent that you are talking and I dont have Vista running half ass at all. At most, I have unneeded applications disabled that I dont/ wont ever use. All my games and apps run just fine with 2GB. That will not last for long, however, because games that are going to be written for DX10, are going to be either one of two things. Memory hogs, or CPU hogs. And most will be memory hogs. Which means a boots in the amount of RAM you need. Its inevitable. The faster computers get, the more optimized games and OS are going to be.

CrAsHnBuRnXp Mar 10, 2007, 05:35am EST Reply - Quote - Report Abuse
Private Message - Add to Buddy List  
>> Re: Re: Vista driver woes, update or upgrade?
Oh, MAN, have you ever said what I meant to say, far better than I could ever have said it! That's EXACTLY what I was getting at in my blurb - why should we have to use an operating system that needs twice as much power for us to do what we're doing right now?

Like I said, who said you had to upgrade yoru entire computer for Vista and run the OS when all you need to do is surf the web and what not? Just run 2000 or XP.

Nowadays, there's more memory and power, so you get 'fat' programs because the programmers know the machines' power will force the program along. No, I'm not advocating a return to DOS. I just, like you, don't see why every new operating system - which, after all, is just an interface to make programs easier to use - should become more important and more memory/power hungry than the last.

Because everyone bitches that they want to see this and that in an OS. And when Microsoft supplies it, they still bitch. Its a lose lose situation. There are going to be those that love it and those who hate it.

phil Mar 10, 2007, 11:53am EST Reply - Quote - Report Abuse
Private Message - Add to Buddy List

Edited: Mar 10, 2007, 12:01pm EST

 
>> Re: Re: Vista driver woes, update or upgrade?
OK, i just put all my energy and ambition into the other reply thread to sanders article.... so with that being said:

windows vista has the system requirements written on the box, just the same as all other software.. why anyone would think not to read it, extrapolate on whether they need it or is a smart purchase for them.. well that's their dumbass problem. Microsoft has made it very clear and very available to everyone the difference between basic, premium, business, and ultimate.

either you're computer literate or you're not.. there are instances when a non-literate person gets stuck buying the wrong product... notice i didn't say "version of Vista" .. yup, it's not M$'s fault people are idiots... just the same as it's not home depot's fault some house wife bought a bathtub 6" to long for the space it's supposed to go.. the dimensions were written right on the side, in the brochure, on the tag, on the damn shelf, and on her mutherfocking god damn receipt!

you want to surf the net.. OK sure.. buy vista basic.. it works with ALL new hardware on every new computer available for purchase. and i even bet 100% that it Will even come pre-installed on 99% of every computer purchased to 'just surf the net and do email' .. yup it's called dell, Compaq, HP. etc... and that's exactly where 99% of those machines are purchased from.
.. but wait PHIL.. stop talking you're an idiot! .. it wont work with all those poor people trying to surf the net with their old sound cards!
.. well ok, so they have an old sound card,, why would they put an OLD sound card in their NEW machine that has perfectly good and working sound already?
.. o wait,, you meant their old sound card in their old computer.. well wtf is 'joe home owner' doing putting vista on his old perfectly good and working computer that he can already surf the net and check his email on just fine?!? .. (do yourself and don't answer that.. i already answered you. remember the bath tub.. yup: shut up)

.. but wait PHIL! .. what about everyone else.. not just the people who check their emails!

everything i said above is still a valid argument, to every other type of customer... some of us can just bend the rules and force things to work, where they otherwise wouldn't.. if you're one of them, consider yourself lucky and give yourself a gold star for not conforming to your slack ass hardware manufacturers' capitalism ambitions to force you into buying more of their products when your old ones work just fine... it's called customer service, and it's not M$'s job to do it for them.


other arguements.. well M$ is forcing me to buy vista with DX10 .. even crysis will run on DX9 machines under XP

M$ is forcing me to upgrade to vista because they didn't make a version with the old HAL layer... XP is STILL for sale and will be supported by M$ for years to come for that very reason.. they're not forcing you into anything

M$ is is is is.. yeah shut up... I can't think of anything else at the moment, so please feel free to post anyother idiotic , non logical arguements here... but PLEASE before you do.. think about them first.. and see if the "bath tub rule" applies in anyway

---
can't access HWA unless I use a proxy... lol

pfft ..f**k that! (almost sounds like work)
Dave Mar 10, 2007, 12:16pm EST Reply - Quote - Report Abuse
Private Message - Add to Buddy List  
>> Re: Re: Vista driver woes, update or upgrade?
But Phil, Vista costs money! Why should I pay for a a new Windows when i already have one?

Phiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiillllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllll.....!

phil Mar 10, 2007, 12:29pm EST Reply - Quote - Report Abuse
Private Message - Add to Buddy List  
>> Re: Re: Vista driver woes, update or upgrade?
HAHAHA,, LMAO..
.. i was in a really angry mood ..
now all i can do is picture a little bitch kid with pirated version of vista, handcuffed down at the police sation..

cop: "why'd you do it kid!"
kid: "because i didn't have any money .*cries.. i want my mommy!"
cop: "well then..*leans down as if to whisper something in kids ear.. GET A JOB DUMBASS!"

---
can't access HWA unless I use a proxy... lol

pfft ..f**k that! (almost sounds like work)
Bitmap Mar 10, 2007, 12:43pm EST Reply - Quote - Report Abuse
Private Message - Add to Buddy List  
>> Re: Re: Vista driver woes, update or upgrade?
marian smith said:
When microsoft finally standardises on a decent device driver interface, they can complain otherwise tough. No one can expect a manufacturer to be jumping through MS hoops for each beta for a product that generates no revenue. Thats capitalism 101.

You cannot standardize it. I don't know why people are suggesting and jabbing at Microsoft to create some standard driver interface to run across every last one of their OS's. The fact of the matter is, we need new driver interfaces. The newest one is always more efficient than the last. Forget being backward compatible. That only adds extra bulk to the code. The hardware/device manufacturers need to get off of their collectively lazy butts, and get rolling on this!

________
"None of you understand. I'm not locked up in here with you. YOU'RE locked up in here with ME." - Walter Kovacs, A.K.A. Rorschach.
dark41 Mar 11, 2007, 04:45am EDT Reply - Quote - Report Abuse
Private Message - Add to Buddy List  
>> Re: Re: Vista driver woes, update or upgrade?
I don't disagree with much said here. A few things I do.

MS has worked hard to market Vista as a necessary upgrade for everyone. So don't blame the gullible people that listen to their ads, and then are disappointed that things don't work as advertised when they post their feelings on the forum. Blame MS for false advertising. MS TV commercials constantly tell us that we need Vista to be in touch with the universe. They brag about security and graphics features. They don't mention that only a couple of versions actually contain the features that they're pushing. Nor do they tell us what all products will work immediately with Vista. The MS Vista upgrade advisor still doesn't list half of the programs that I'm having trouble with. Was this done intentionally? Or was this done without proper research? Either way, Vista was released in a big hurry and well before it was ready to be supported by many manufacturers.

I'm old enough to remember well the initial release of 98 SE. Almost everything worked on that OS right after installing it. The modem, printer, scanner, monitor, speakers, keyboard, mouse and most everything else worked immediately after installing the OS. Sure, if for example, you wanted specific things to work with your printer, you might have to install the printer software. But basic drivers for almost every periferal device at the time were included with the OS. The biggest complaint when W2K arrived was the lack of drivers included with the OS. The trend continued with XP and now Vista. Make no mistake, MS alone decides which 3rd party drivers to support and which to force the manufacturer to support. What good would an OS be that couldn't communicate with the CPU? How about the RAM? Hard drives? You get the idea. Count the number of drivers installed with Vista and you'll see that they supply quite a few for 3rd party devices. MS has constantly forced more and more 3rd party manufacturers to provide driver support for the OS as each new Windows version comes out. So while its valid to blame 3rd party manufacturers to an extent, its also valid to blame MS for not providing driver support. Obviously MS would need several DVDs to include drivers for every component. But releasing an OS without driver support for the most commonly used graphics and sound chips on their revolutionary media playing OS is not acceptable. They could have easily fit them on the provided DVD. The truth is that MS has cut back on driver support more and more with each new OS. .

Most people are not gamers (gamers represent less than 5% of computer users) and most people do not run more than a couple apps at the same time. Thus, they have no need for more than 512mb RAM with XP. Since Vista Home Basic and Vista Home Premium don't provide many of the advertised security enhancements and none of the graphic enhancements that MS has been so prominently advertising, only Vista Business and Ultimate are legitimate upgrades. Now Home Basic and Premium may be worth going to with a new system, as they're basically the same price as XP Home anyway. Just don't expect much, as they're not much different than XP for features. In fact, its easy to setup XP Home to resemble Vista Home Basic.

System requirements? What a joke. However, say someone decides that the advertised enhancements are worth upgrading to. In the case of Business and Ultimate, the minimal system requirements will do nothing more than start the OS. Even then, popups will immediately start appearing telling the user to turn off Vista features. The recommended system requirements aren't much better. The OS will start and run fine, until you start other programs. Every review that I've read to date advises more RAM than MS does. This is misleading by MS, at best. I don't see how anyone who goes according to MS's recommendations can be considered an idiot. If anything, MS is the idiot for promoting Vista as necessary for everyone, and then trying to make their system requirements look better than they really are.

Just because a few people don't have a problem with an issue on Vista because of how and what they use on it, doesn't make other people's problems any less relevant. Deleting HAL from the OS has ruined some apps. Just ask an engineer or architect how Vista has improved their career. Then duck. ;)

Mark,
I incorrectly said 'get by', when I should have said "get along just fine". You said that. Sadly, not all of us are having the same results.

EX38-DS5
E8500@4.0GHz (445x9, 1.40v) TRUE Black
Corsair HX620W
2x2gb Kingston HyperX 9600
HIS IceQ4 HD4850
2X1TB F1s (RAID 0) XP Pro/Win7 Ult 64
Auzen X-Fi Prelude 7.1
Cambridge Soundworks 500w 5.1
G5, Antec 1200
Luigi Meloni Mar 11, 2007, 07:59am EDT Reply - Quote - Report Abuse
Private Message - Add to Buddy List  
>> Re: Re: Vista driver woes, update or upgrade?
Hi all. I live in Italy, have been working on computers for the past 15 years (started on old Sperry Univacs). I must say I have great reservations on Microsoft Os politics. I currently work as a sound engineer in a recording studio. I have just got to buy a new computer to couple the old ones for more processing power. I got to buy an OEM Windows licence, and to my surprise I have been told that there are no more windows xps around because microsoft doesn't distributes this OS anymore, so I had to buy Vista. First problem. Vista doesn't work with any of the professional music hardware I have bought in the past two years (and we are talking some thousand euros here). Second problem. Professional music software have problems with Vista. Sometimes I have even problems copying my own music or some of the projects I am working on because of the "protections against piracy" that microsoft has put in it (thanks Gates and RIAA). Ok, the driver faults can be hardware producer's. Ok software houses could have thought about Vista a year or so before it even showed around. But I must remember someone that I still have the same problem with microsoft XP service pack 2 regarding firewire drivers that I had a year ago, and that is microsoft fault (and before anyone says "patch" I have tried them all and that didn't work, the only way to make firewire go to full speed is to install Windows xp w/SP1a, pretty difficult when they sell you a version of XP w/SP2 integrated). You shouldn't sell a "BETA" version of your OS to make the buyer test it for you. And most of all you should leave the buyer the choice of buying your "old" and tested OS at least for some months.
Expecially since here in Italy Vista Ultimate Costs 599 Euro (which is 778 $) to the final buyer.

Luigi

Asus P5B deluxe wifi-ap edition
Core 2 Duo E6600
2x1Gb Kingston 667
Asus EN7600GS Silent
4x 250Gb Samsung S-ata 2 HDD
2x external maxtor usb2 120Gb hdd

dark41 Mar 11, 2007, 09:00am EDT Reply - Quote - Report Abuse
Private Message - Add to Buddy List  
>> Re: Re: Vista driver woes, update or upgrade?
Sorry to hear about your problems Luigi, but if its any consolation, you're not alone. One of the reasons we decided to put Vista on our own systems is that our suppliers tell us that the XP versions they can get are now limited to lots of 10. XP is still available for us at this time as OEM, but its only a matter of time before it isn't.

I totally agree with you about putting a beta version out to the public. This is how I feel about the supposed RTM version as well. Its not ready for prime time. While many users here seem to disagree, I have yet to find one who likes it and also runs professional software or decent hardware configurations for sound that feels this way.

Before others jump on you about how this is the software manufacturer's fault, I'll say that I feel this is entirely MS's fault and responsibility.

As for playing/sharing music files, just stay away from Windows Media Player and WMA formats in particular. Immediately after you record the file, it can be converted to any format that you wish without problem. Once its opened in Windows Media Player, the problems start. I have no problems with MP3s through Winamp, as long as they weren't converted from WMA. (I have 22,000 MP3s, so know a bit about music formats.) My daughter just recorded an honor choir concert on her own. Her mistake was to rip to WMA and then play the files before sharing them with me. Windows Media Player 10 and 11 tell me this is a copy protected file which requires a license before playing it. Its not. By ripping it as MP3 on Winamp, it plays without problems on any computer or other device, and without a license, as she intended it.

If these tricks don't work for you, send me a PM and I may be able to help you get around the problem. :)

EX38-DS5
E8500@4.0GHz (445x9, 1.40v) TRUE Black
Corsair HX620W
2x2gb Kingston HyperX 9600
HIS IceQ4 HD4850
2X1TB F1s (RAID 0) XP Pro/Win7 Ult 64
Auzen X-Fi Prelude 7.1
Cambridge Soundworks 500w 5.1
G5, Antec 1200
phil Mar 11, 2007, 01:06pm EDT Reply - Quote - Report Abuse
Private Message - Add to Buddy List  
>> Re: Re: Vista driver woes, update or upgrade?
dark,
the MS vista advisor is just a victim of bad research on microsofts part, i wont say it's not their responsibility to say what existing programs will or wont work with vista as that would fall into ones own opinion of how far customer support should go.. also you'd have to look at how that list works, to see if companies have to pay to be on it (i imagine so, to cover M$'s costs in installing it and giving it an extensive testing)

i don't know why you say that about wma's .. it's a great format and WMP is a great piece of software.. i've recorded and ripped many more thousands of .WMA then you possess and have never once had a problem with licenses
.. but as an owner of 22000 songs many multipul times over, i'm no expert.. i just know i've nerver ever had a problem on a ligitimate file. (i do sense a i hate everything microsoft theme in your posts though)


luigi
it is unfortunate you have been told you cannot get XP anymore, i suggest you look around for a copy as it's still widely availible from retail stores here in canada and the united states, i saw at least a dozen copies on the shelf at staples this morning.

---
can't access HWA unless I use a proxy... lol

pfft ..f**k that! (almost sounds like work)
Luigi Meloni Mar 11, 2007, 01:48pm EDT Reply - Quote - Report Abuse
Private Message - Add to Buddy List  
>> Re: Re: Vista driver woes, update or upgrade?
I currently use the Wma format, since it has a very good quality(expecially the lossless one), just to keep a portable version of my works on an mp3/wma player, and I have been doing this for some time now, but the problem is with Vista licence control (the control against the copy of copyrighted materials, which fails to recognize my original WMA files as "original").
The problem is that here in Italy for microsoft politics on licences I can't legally use a licence made for another country, I can only use licences made for Italy.
I have currently asked some friends who sell computers and software to try and find me some Xp licences (possibly SP1, not SP2 which is unusable with all the professional firewire audio periferals I have tested (soundcards, dsp cards and my tascam digital mixer).

Luigi
Asus P5B deluxe wifi-ap edition
Core 2 Duo E6600
2x1Gb Kingston 667
Asus EN7600GS Silent
4x 250Gb Samsung S-ata 2 HDD
2x external maxtor usb2 120Gb hdd

CrAsHnBuRnXp Mar 11, 2007, 11:45pm EDT Reply - Quote - Report Abuse
Private Message - Add to Buddy List  
>> Re: Re: Vista driver woes, update or upgrade?
I totally agree with you about putting a beta version out to the public. This is how I feel about the supposed RTM version as well. Its not ready for prime time. While many users here seem to disagree, I have yet to find one who likes it and also runs professional software or decent hardware configurations for sound that feels this way.

There was a public beta. It was called RC1 and 2.

Before others jump on you about how this is the software manufacturer's fault, I'll say that I feel this is entirely MS's fault and responsibility.

I still cant believe you think it is Microsofts fault for not having correct drivers. I do not know how many times we have to tell you and everyone else that thinks this that it is NOT. Microsoft creates the OS. It is the hardware and software makers SOLE responsibility to create the drivers for their hardware/software to work with the OS. NOT the other way around.

As for playing/sharing music files, just stay away from Windows Media Player and WMA formats in particular. Immediately after you record the file, it can be converted to any format that you wish without problem. Once its opened in Windows Media Player, the problems start. I have no problems with MP3s through Winamp, as long as they weren't converted from WMA. (I have 22,000 MP3s, so know a bit about music formats.) My daughter just recorded an honor choir concert on her own. Her mistake was to rip to WMA and then play the files before sharing them with me. Windows Media Player 10 and 11 tell me this is a copy protected file which requires a license before playing it. Its not. By ripping it as MP3 on Winamp, it plays without problems on any computer or other device, and without a license, as she intended it.

I cannot believe what I am reading. Just like Phil has already said, WMA is a great audio format and works just fine. I have never had any problems with it. I think that you just have problems using Microsoft products in general. I have had my share of using WMA and have transfered music to different computers using this file format with no problems. But now, I use mp3's because I like it better. Not beause I have a problem with WMA. For the record, WMP is a great audio player.


dark41 Mar 11, 2007, 11:51pm EDT Reply - Quote - Report Abuse
Private Message - Add to Buddy List  
>> Re: Re: Vista driver woes, update or upgrade?
I'm not a MS hater. I make my living from MS. I just call them as I see them. When you're the only game on the block, you have a bigger responsibility to make sure everyone who wants to can play, me thinks.

I think the entire DRM is more the fault of the RIAA and a corrupt government than MS. MS has to do what it has to do to keep from litigation.

I was on the beta testing team for Vista Upgrade Advisor tool. No idea exactly what determines which software gets included in the results, but I can tell you that several of the compatibility issues I found still aren't listed.

EX38-DS5
E8500@4.0GHz (445x9, 1.40v) TRUE Black
Corsair HX620W
2x2gb Kingston HyperX 9600
HIS IceQ4 HD4850
2X1TB F1s (RAID 0) XP Pro/Win7 Ult 64
Auzen X-Fi Prelude 7.1
Cambridge Soundworks 500w 5.1
G5, Antec 1200
Bitmap Mar 12, 2007, 01:27am EDT Reply - Quote - Report Abuse
Private Message - Add to Buddy List  
>> Re: Re: Vista driver woes, update or upgrade?
dark41 said:
Before others jump on you about how this is the software manufacturer's fault, I'll say that I feel this is entirely MS's fault and responsibility.
How is it MS's fault?? How is Microsoft responsible for making sure that every piece of hardware on the market is compatible with their new OS. That is by no means the job of Microsoft. It is the manufacturer's responsibility because they need to take care of their products. Microsoft doesn't write drivers for Creative, Logitech, iRiver, Apple, HP, ATI, nVidia, Memorex, Sony, or any of those. Explain to me exactly how any hardware compatibility issues are Microsoft's fault. Please.

And as far as software, it's just about the same idea. It is the developer's job to write a patch to allow software to work with Vista.

So, please, explain yourself for us all.

________
"None of you understand. I'm not locked up in here with you. YOU'RE locked up in here with ME." - Walter Kovacs, A.K.A. Rorschach.
phil Mar 12, 2007, 04:31am EDT Reply - Quote - Report Abuse
Private Message - Add to Buddy List  
>> Re: Re: Vista driver woes, update or upgrade?
... from "the other vista driver woes, update or upgrade? thread..
it may prove to be enlightening.

Payton:
Compatibility problems tend to smooth out over time. Twenty thousand device drivers were available when Vista was released, and more are coming out at a rate of 1,600 per month. "We believe about 90% of devices are covered today," says Boettcher.

More than 7,000 applications have received Microsoft's "Works With Vista" designation, but only 1,000 have been "certified" for Vista, a more rigorous process that ensures the highest level of compatibility. Even Microsoft has to prioritize which of its applications get Vista certification first, Boettcher says


From a March 12th article in InformationWeek. To read the entire article titled Windows Vista's 90-Day Report Card go to:http://snipurl.com/1cpnl I don't agree nor disagree with the article. I don't have enough first hand knowledge to do so. And I'm not posting this as a comment, only as an additional source relevant to the thread, for your consideration.



---
can't access HWA unless I use a proxy... lol

pfft ..f**k that! (almost sounds like work)

Write a Reply >>

Continue Reading on Page: 1, 2, 3, 4, Next >>

 

    
 
 

  Topic Tools 
 
RSS UpdatesRSS Updates
 

  Related Articles 
 
 

  Newsletter 
 
A weekly newsletter featuring an editorial and a roundup of the latest articles, news and other interesting topics.

Please enter your email address below and click Subscribe.