MS has been following a trend for quite some time now. When W2K became a very stable OS with SP4, MS releases XP, which although is an improvment, wasn't really stable and secure until SP2. Now that XP is very stable and works well, MS releases Vista. By the time Vista is stable and things are working as advertised on it, MS will release another OS. I'm not anti-MS. But they control the computer market almost single handedly. Their marketing approach is about generating profit for them on a constant basis, more than provided the end user with a stable OS that they're comfortable with. If they really cared what the consumer wanted, they would continue to provide the older OS's and support them for people who choose to stay with them. There's no profit for them in doing that, so they don't.

My position on driver responsibility has been stated pretty clearly several times on this thread. I don't really care to persuade anyone who feels differently, and you sure aren't going to change my mind either. Just because people state that its the hardware/software manufactuers fault, doesn't make it so, no matter how many times they post their feelings about it. For every member who says its the 3rd party's fault, I can match someone who feels MS has dropped the ball on this issue. The facts back up my position. The facts are that MS started out providing basic hardware support and has throttled it back with every new OS release. Obviously it was a decent strategy for MS to throttle back hardware driver support, as now the younger people who don't know any better are convinced that its always been this way. It hasn't. I don't see where anyone feeling the opposite has provided any valid reasons for their opinions, so the debate is dead as far as I'm concerned.

Software is a different issue, although MS should carefully consider the ramifications of providing a new OS that will not be compatible with current software for obvious reasons. The problem here is not so much that software is not supported by the new OS, as sales and support for the old OS is dropped.

Read back if you care to see more detailed explanations on how I've come to my opinion.

Bottom line is that at this point in time Vista is still a work in progress, and not ready for prime time. Its a beta version thats been put out to the public before it was ready because MS was under tremendous pressure to launch it. The reason they were under tremendous pressure is that they failed to meet many launch dates that they miscalculated. Sales are down from their expected forcasts for this reason. MS support is overwhelmed with calls for this reason. Many people are still using dual boot systems for this reason. If Vista hadn't been released yet, MS would have another set of problems to deal with. There is no perfect solution at this point, but I'm sure MS wishes they would have kept to themselves about official launch dates from the beginning so they could have taken more time developing Vista.

The current main graphics and sound chips aren't supported on the biggest media playing OS to date. Many games still won't work with it. 5.1 and up surround sound isn't working with it. How is that MS's fault? MS has been marketing Vista to be the best media playing OS ever for years. MS released Vista without the capability to work with the current hardware. End result is that the OS doesn't do what its been hyped up to do since day one. Rather than work closely with Nvidia, ATI, Realtek, SigmaTel, etc., to make sure the OS actually could do what they claimed, they've left it completely up to the manufacturers to figure it out. MS put off dealing with AV manufacturers until the last minute, and only then after litigation was threatened, in an attempt to provide their own solutions and corner more market for themselves. Did it ever occur to anyone else that a possible reason that 5.1 and current graphics chips aren't supported by MS is that MS couldn't get them to work? So pass it off on the manufacturer and try to cover your butt. At any rate, the OS doesn't do what they've claimed all along that it would. Whether it ever does, only time will tell. Some media playing OS.

Enough said.

it's a beta because other peoples' software isn't finished for it?
.. that's completely nonsensical gibberish.

and i have 7.1 and 5.1 sound working on vista just fine, yup on my realtek on board sound.

.. the problem with the sound is that creative isn't going to be supporting many of it's products in vista, they've already stated that, creative is making a money grab and forcing 80% of it's customers to make an upgrade, not microsoft.

other manufactures are doing the same, and others are just late with drivers.

.. video card drivers are admittingly incomplete.. both ati and nvidia achknowledge it's their own fault.. and yet you still blame M$.

.. so you can pull your foot out of your mouth anytime

Where'd you get your drivers for Realtek sound?

Sorry, but I've been in the business way too long to buy into your feeble arguements.

I'm usually an early adopter, yet I put off upgrading to Vista, expecting my 3 year old system to be insufficient to power this “hog”. A friend with a similar system did upgrade and was pleased with the results, so I said what the hell, I’ll give it a shot. I’m glad I did. To be honest, my computers are always a work in process. The video card had been upgraded twice in 3 years, and the whole upgrade experience (Vista Home Premium Upgrade Version-clean install) went very smoothly. I’ve run into a few minor issues with programs behaving slightly different then they did with XP. Some programs (Office 2003 Prof) actually run faster than they did under XP. 2 weeks before my Vista upgrade, I switched from an X-Fi sound card to an Auzen Meridian 7.1. Just got sick of all the bloatware in the Creative drivers. Auzentechs new Vista drivers are a little buggy, but they are coming around and I expect full compatibility soon. This out of a small 6.3 meg driver. The sound out of my Logitech Z-5500’s is totally amazing. All in all I’m enjoying my Vista experience. It may not be quite as polished as XP has become, but it will be, sooner than later. There are those who would take exception to my calling XP polished, but I’ve got no ax to grind with either operating systems. It’s a personal choice which I’m glad I made even now in it’s early stages (yeah, I know, 5 years of development, somehow doesn’t translate to early stages). This debate will thrive for months, if not years, in the mean time I’ll sit back, take it all in, enjoy the added eye candy, newer interface and feel that my aging system has successfully survived it’s cosmetic surgery and looks and feels better because of it.

Dell 8400
P4 3.2GHz
4 X 512 DDR2-533
Pny 7900GS
160g Maxtor HD
200g Maxtor USB HD
Logitech G7
Auzen Meridian 7.1 Sound Card
Logitech Z-5500 Speakers
Dell 2007WFP Monitor

dark41 said:

dark... that's a joke right?! .. you've been in the "business" for soooo long, you don't know where to download drivers? .. try http://www.realtek.com

.. anyways, no part of my last post can be called an argument nevermind a "feeble arguement"... what's next .. the "my dad can beat up your dad, stance" .. or "is too!, is not!, is too!, is not!"
.. ok yes im mocking you.. but only because i find your reasons and (in my opinion) and lack of knowledge on the topic comical.

Dean,
.. i know how you feel about the creative software, that's one of the reasons i switched soundcard venders in all of my computers too... and now that vista supports sidescrolling, i find myself not installing logitech setpoint either.

Phil,
I'd give you the realtek URL, but won't do any good as there are no working drivers there for Vista and 5.1 sound. The Realtek R1.61 Vista drivers don't get 5.1 working. I thought you knew something others didn't.

I've posted to 4 different forums and been in contact with 3 different motherboard manufacturers. Apparently you're the only person on the planet who has 5.1 working with Vista, as no one else is aware of any working drivers available for Realtek nor SigmTel. But my guess is that you don't have it working either.

Gigabyte has had a beta driver out for months, but it doesn't work properly. Gigabyte expects to have working drivers in the next 2-3 months.

dark41 said:

lmao, O..K.. the system beside me has vista running and AC97 5.1 working perfectly.. in fact it's playing Megadeth-symphony of destruction, just beautifully,, i just checked the speaker fill box in the realtek sound manager after reading it on about ten other web pages... clearly im not the only one with 5 or 7.1 sound working

--- EDIT: in fact dean, who posted in here just above had 5.1 working also.. you want to call him a liar too? because you did already call me a liar.. i think you need to chill, and think before posting.

You might not be lying since you have a dinosaur, but I'll never know. I can't even buy a motherboard with AC97 anymore.

None of the current drivers work with AC8888 or any variations of AC8xxx that I've tried. Gigabyte usually beats everyone else to the punch, so I don't expect to see any working drivers for current hardware supporting 5.1 and up for months.

dark41, do us all a favor and learn to admit when you're wrong. Trust me, you'll save yourself some humiliation, and you'll have more friends on here than enemies. I've seen it before.

Phil,
http://www.realtek.com.tw

Apparently they don't own the regular ".com" domain.

Bobby Phillipps,
Except I'm not wrong. I have yet to find anyone with Realtek AC8888 or SigmaTel HD working on Vista with 5.1 or better. My board has been listed on my signature for the past year. The R1.61 drivers don't work with any board I've bought over the last year on Vista. We have a (still in the box) 2 year old board in stock with onboard AC97, but that's a warranty backup for P4 systems that we've sold in the past. It will never be installed in one of our systems, so doubt that I'll ever test it with Vista. Our current boards are either Intel with SigmaTel High Definition or Gigabyte with AC8888. We only use and sell current technology. So while AC97 may be working correctly with Vista, its not relevant to my original question, though I probably should have been more specific.

I've been on this forum for quite a while. I just changed nicks when I changed email addy a while back. I'm also on quite a few other forums that are more friendly in general. Each forum has its strengths and weaknesses. HWA is no exception. HWA has alienated so many manufacturers with their honest reviews that they don't get much to test anymore. I kinda admire that, as its not a high priority for me to suck up to anyone to make friends either. Some of these more friendly forums get quite a bit of hardware to test, but the reviews are always sugar coated, which isn't very realistic. I come here to share and get information. When I have nothing left to contribute and/or don't get any value from this forum anymore, I'll disappear. But don't worry about me. My skin is thick enough that no silly word fight is going to hurt my feelings. And usually I don't have to resort to mocking people or name calling to make my point. But I will admit that this thread is no longer worth reading for me.

The funniest part of this whole thing is that anyone would think this is a black/white arguement about driver responsibility. Its been argued back and forth for decades and will be argued back and forth for decades to come, because its all personal opinions and nothing more.

And for the record, no one wants me to be wrong more than I do regarding 5.1 drivers. Its driving me nuts not having it.

dark41 said:
Your just saying that because you know we are right when we say that hardware and software manufactures are to blame with no driver support for Vista. Why the hell would anyone not believe the FACT that hardware manufacturers support and create THEIR OWN WORKING DRIVERS to make them compatible with Vista is beyond me. You are one of the few that believe Microsoft is to blame. Since when does Microsoft make DFI motherboards and ATI/AMD and nVIDIA video cards? Last time I checked, they didnt. In fact, the last time I checked, Microsoft was the one to make operating systems and other software and hardware/software manufactures such as DFI, Abit, Asus, Gigabyte, ATI, nVIDIA, ZoneAlarm, etc, made their products to work with Microsoft's OS. Do you see Apple or Linux doing the opposite of Microsoft? No. Because the same applies for them as well.

dark41 said:

I'd like for you to explain to me how THAT is Microsoft's fault. The problem is: it's not. It's RealTek's fault, and you damn well know it.

.

Do you want to know why we dont review hardware anymore? Well im going to tell you anyway. It is because everytime we do, a flame war starts about it on how ATI is going to beat nVidia or vice versa. Same goes for AMD and Intel. So we just stopped. We may start doing it again one day. If we do, if the immaturity of the review starts up again, it'll end again.

I've given my reasons over and over. There are tons of people who agree with me on this. Every time I go to a MS convention where OS's are discussed, the topic comes up. I have yet to see anyone argue that MS should let the manufacturers come up with their own drivers at a convention. I've yet to hear a MS spokeman take the position you guys are, that its never been their responsibility and still isn't. Quite the contrary. MS reps usually state very diplomatically about wanting to and thinking they have support for the main hardware included.

MS didn't make hardware when 98 SE came out either. Yet most hardware drivers were included with the OS. MS has supplied less and less drivers for hardware in their OS's with every new release. This is a trend they chose to create.

Don't expect any more rebuttals from me on this subject. We'll just have to agree to disagree.

I'm certainly no expert on Apple systems. My nephew informed me that his last system came with drivers pre-installed for every hardware component on the system. In any case, its a comparison of apples to orang... er.. windows.

Stay away alltogether. It's just another broken os that billy knows everyone will just have to get. The latest and greatest broken beta. With all the poor saps buying it's no wonder he is a billionare. Don't be a sucker wait a year to buy a polished version. " title=">">

Joseph Shurman said:
And what is your bases for thinking that? Have you used it? If so, for how long? Or is it that you are just mad that your computer cannot run it?

Did it ever occur to you that the hardware manufacturer provided those drivers for Microsoft to implement to Microsoft?


You seem to be the only one disagreeing the facts that are presented to you.


Okay. So how new was the OS and how old was the hardware inside of the computer?

Another operating system and yet more arguments. It all began the MS-DOS faithfuls snubbing Windows 3.1. Now it continues to this very day.

I had a good experience installing Vista on my system, some of my games and applications had to be updated. My scanner however did not have XP drivers but thankfully my Lexmark Laser printer did. It was just a simple case of creating a dual boot system with XP on one partition and Vista on the other, just like I did with Windows 98SE and XP when that OS first launched.

Sure there are going to be compatibility issues, sure there are going to be devices without drivers and some manufacturers just abandoning products. My older system has a Soundblaster 128 PCI sound card that does not have any Vista drivers but I wouldn't try to install in on that machine as that just has an AMD 900MHZ Thunderbird CPU.

New PCs have already started shipping with Vista but in many cases if you demand XP they will put it on for you.

Bottom line is Vista is a new OS, give it some time. It's bound to have some issues, does anybody recall when XP was the new kid on the block....


Current System:
AMD Athlon 64 3200+
Gigabyte K800M Rev 2.x
1GB PC3200 RAM
200GB Western Digital 7200RPM HD (IDE)
Geforce 7600GS 512MB
LG 16X DVD
Ben Q 8X DL DVDRW

Hi,
My first post on this forum. I just love this war over OSes. I used to make a buck by writing WDM drivers for 98-2k-Xp series. And let me tell you that Vista has gone in the right direction with their user mode drivers and WDF.

However, updating to vista isn't one of my priorities, at least not for a few years to come.
I have a Vista computer for test purposes and all those complains about memory carnage are simply not true. Vista runs perfectly well on 1Gb, (which is still a lot of mem) after you configure it a bit.

If you don't plan to buy a new system you definately better of with your old OS.

I personally use Kubuntu as my main OS and even managed to run Windoze games on it (UT2k4, doom3, Q4).

Looking at Vista upgrade path I can tell you that moving to Ubuntu / Kubuntu is better. The learning curve required is pretty comparable.

For the sake of yey candy comparission I installed Linux eqvivalent of Vista new GUI - beryl & compiz, which have plenty of BS effects. Removed it just like I did in Vista.