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  Re: DirectX 10, no longer a Vista exclusive? 
 
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Sander Sassen Mar 15, 2007, 06:23am EDT Reply - Quote - Report Abuse
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Well, one of the things that puzzles me about Vista is the fact that DirectX 10 is said to be a Vista exclusive. In the past there's always been cross platfrom releases to not shut out user of previous Microsoft OS's. Will Microsoft break the tradition this time around, or will they cave in under pressure and offer basic DirectX 10 functionality under Windows XP? What do you think?

Best regards,


Sander Sassen
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Dublin_Gunner Mar 15, 2007, 07:46am EDT Reply - Quote - Report Abuse
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>> Re: Re: DirectX 10, no longer a Vista exclusive?
I think technically, its not possible.

DX10 makes use of the fact there is no HAL in Vista, and DX10 probably being the main reason they eradicated the need for the HAL.

As we know, the HAL is the only way for the hardware (via the driver) to interact with previous OS's (from Win 98 up)

There is probably some way around it, but I would imagine it would take a massive performance hit, as you would have to emulate a lot of the functionality of the new driver model.

Unfortunate circumstance of progression, but what can you do?

For those who have jumped on the Vista bandwagon early (myself included) its not such a huge problem, apart from having to fork out for DX10 hardware; as was the case for previous DX hardware; i.e. cant use DX9 apps on DX8 hardware (although you could generally set the app to DX8 mode, just like with DX10, there will be DX9 modes).

I think I'm right, but open to correction!

Have you been using Vista, Sander?


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angryhippy Mar 15, 2007, 07:52am EDT Reply - Quote - Report Abuse
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>> Re: Re: DirectX 10, no longer a Vista exclusive?
Microsoft is ready to roll out an online service where console gamers and PC gamers can play against each other. The catch here? PC gamers will have that ability only if they are running Vista. XP ain't gonna get it. It's obvious MS is going to be doing everything it can to basically force the upgrade if you want to maintain a cutting edge gaming experience. I'm guessing this is not the last "Vista only" thing we will be seeing. MS is gonna do whatever it takes to force Vista down our throats. I doubt DX10 will be coming to an XP PC anytime soon.


Microsoft service to link console, PC gamers online
LOS ANGELES (Reuters) - Microsoft Corp. on Wednesday said its Live online service, which has attracted 6 million Xbox 360 console gamers, will be open in May to PC gamers who use its new Windows Vista operating system.

The move comes nearly a year after Microsoft Chairman Bill Gates said the company's vision was for "anywhere" gaming that would link video game consoles, cell phones and computers, and is a key step toward reaching that goal.

The PC version of Live will debut on May 8 with the launch of the Windows Vista version of "Halo 2," Microsoft's popular alien shooter game.

In June, Microsoft Game Studios will release "Shadowrun," the first game where Live will support competition between players on the Xbox 360 and PCs.

Live members will need just one account, whether they play on the Xbox 360, the PC, or both machines
source:http://snipurl.com/1d1pi

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Carl Sullivan Mar 15, 2007, 07:55am EDT Reply - Quote - Report Abuse
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>> Re: Re: DirectX 10, no longer a Vista exclusive?
Microsoft can do what they want to do on the PC, quite frankly, I am tired of upgrading my computer every 3 months just to play some game. I hate to see what power you have to push an direct X 10 game on Vista, because you really had to upgrade your computer just to run alot of direct 9 games that ran fine on XP. My gaming will be strickly consoles from now on.

Dublin_Gunner Mar 15, 2007, 08:10am EDT Reply - Quote - Report Abuse
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>> Re: Re: DirectX 10, no longer a Vista exclusive?
See, I really despise the way people moan about this, as if its something new.

Any DX upgrade (7-8, 8-9 etc) required new hardware to run in the new DX mode, for the new shiny effects.

And to be honest, people have been poorly treated by only having XP for the past 5 years. (apart from XP x64, which is a Win 2003 based OS)

I'm actually glad we (PC users) finally have a new OS to use.

If you dont want to buy Vista, then dont; if you dont want to play DX10 games, then dont.

But dont complain about it.

To be honest, I dont blame MS for trying to get as many people to switch to Vista. Just like any company releasing a new product, you must have features that are exclusive to it in order for people to buy it, otherwise you dont make money.

Do people think MS are here merely to serve you?? Get a grip, they are a business just like any other.

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Dublin_Gunner Mar 15, 2007, 08:12am EDT Reply - Quote - Report Abuse
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>> Re: Re: DirectX 10, no longer a Vista exclusive?
Carl Sullivan said: [quote]because you really had to upgrade your computer just to run alot of direct 9 games that ran fine on XP. [quote]

Obviously coming from someone who hasnt actually used Vista yet.

My DX9 games run just fine on vista without ANY hardware upgrade.

BTW, dont look at my sig, I'm still waiting on my new mobo. I'm using an A64 3000+ at 2.3, & 1Gb ram.

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Sander Sassen Mar 15, 2007, 08:20am EDT Reply - Quote - Report Abuse
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>> Re: Re: DirectX 10, no longer a Vista exclusive?
Have you been using Vista, Sander?


Yeah, tried a few betas throughput the years but since Microsoft sent me copies of Vista Ultimate I've installed it on half of the test machines I've got set up here. Been running Vista on those for the past month.

Best regards,

Sander Sassen
Editor in Chief - Hardware Analysis
ssassen@hardwareanalysis.com
B Mar 15, 2007, 08:24am EDT Reply - Quote - Report Abuse
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>> Re: Re: DirectX 10, no longer a Vista exclusive?
I don't see me buying a Direct X 10 card anytime soon or Vista for that matter. I would not mind playing Direct X 10 games in Direct X 9 mode however. I'm hoping Direct X 9.0L will fulfill my wish to play Direct X 10 games in Direct X 9 mode. :|

Dublin_Gunner Mar 15, 2007, 08:30am EDT Reply - Quote - Report Abuse
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>> Re: Re: DirectX 10, no longer a Vista exclusive?
Brendan Gonsalves said:
I don't see me buying a Direct X 10 card anytime soon or Vista for that matter. I would not mind playing Direct X 10 games in Direct X 9 mode however. I'm hoping Direct X 9.0L will fulfill my wish to play Direct X 10 games in Direct X 9 mode. :|


Bren, as I've (and many others) have stated time and time again, even quoting you in other threads, DX9L has nothing to do with XP or DX10.

Its the version of DX9 in Vista which allows for DX9 emulation. There is no DX10 or anything like it for XP, and to be honest, there probably never will be

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B Mar 15, 2007, 08:34am EDT Reply - Quote - Report Abuse
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Edited: Mar 15, 2007, 08:35am EDT

 
>> Re: Re: DirectX 10, no longer a Vista exclusive?
Crap. :/

So it was just a rumor?

EDIT: I thought Direct X 9.0L would allow XP users to RUN Direct X 10 games in Direct X 9 mode.

Dublin_Gunner Mar 15, 2007, 08:43am EDT Reply - Quote - Report Abuse
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>> Re: Re: DirectX 10, no longer a Vista exclusive?
Brendan Gonsalves said:
Crap. :/

So it was just a rumor?

EDIT: I thought Direct X 9.0L would allow XP users to RUN Direct X 10 games in Direct X 9 mode.


That was the initial rumour, about a year ago when the Inquirer posted it. They retracted the statement and gave the actual info about a day later.

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Carl Sullivan Mar 15, 2007, 08:43am EDT Reply - Quote - Report Abuse
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>> Re: Re: DirectX 10, no longer a Vista exclusive?

Merc Mar 15, 2007, 08:45am EDT Reply - Quote - Report Abuse
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>> Re: Re: DirectX 10, no longer a Vista exclusive?
Hasn't MS has been planning a version of DX9 that would provide a bridge to DX10 games for awhile now? I think it is labeled DX9L and you will be able to play DX10 games, with some eye candy but obviously not all, on your present DX9 gear.

As for Vista, I haven't even used it but have heard good things for the most part (driver problems aside). The sole reason that I haven't bought Vista is I don't want to shell out $225US for the Premium DVD Retail. It is my understanding (and please correct me if I am wrong) that the OEM version can be used on only one motherboard. Swap to a new mobo and get a new OEM copy. The retail version allows you to swap gear to your hearts content. There is also an upgrade version that, I guess, requires you to install XP and then install Vista. I am waiting for SP1 to come out and then I'll pony up the cash and go Vista. I have to for business purposes.

I'll try and find a non-forum link to that article i read about DX9L.

Merc
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Carl Sullivan Mar 15, 2007, 08:47am EDT Reply - Quote - Report Abuse
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>> Re: Re: DirectX 10, no longer a Vista exclusive?
DublinGunner said:
Carl Sullivan said: [quote]because you really had to upgrade your computer just to run alot of direct 9 games that ran fine on XP. [quote]

Obviously coming from someone who hasnt actually used Vista yet.

My DX9 games run just fine on vista without ANY hardware upgrade.

BTW, dont look at my sig, I'm still waiting on my new mobo. I'm using an A64 3000+ at 2.3, & 1Gb ram.



I am using Vista now, and tell me playing Need for Speed Carbon, loses alot of frame rates in Vista, it ran fine in XP. I had to turn alot of stuff down in Vista to play this game.
My setup is a Athlon 64 300+ with 1.25 GB RAM, and a ATI Radeon X1600 Pro 512.

Dublin_Gunner Mar 15, 2007, 09:19am EDT Reply - Quote - Report Abuse
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>> Re: Re: DirectX 10, no longer a Vista exclusive?
Merc said:
Hasn't MS has been planning a version of DX9 that would provide a bridge to DX10 games for awhile now? I think it is labeled DX9L and you will be able to play DX10 games, with some eye candy but obviously not all, on your present DX9 gear.



I'll try and find a non-forum link to that article i read about DX9L.


Please read above posts.

Here is the corrected Article from the Inq.
http://www.theinquirer.net/default.aspx?article=35140

Another link
http://www.answers.com/topic/directx

And from MS forums
http://forums.microsoft.com/MSDN/ShowPost.aspx?PostID=829387&SiteID=1

More Info
http://forums.microsoft.com/MSDN/ShowPost.aspx?PostID=666453&SiteID=1

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B Mar 15, 2007, 09:28am EDT Reply - Quote - Report Abuse
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>> Re: Re: DirectX 10, no longer a Vista exclusive?
Thanks for clearing things up DublinGunner. :)

Dublin_Gunner Mar 15, 2007, 09:34am EDT Reply - Quote - Report Abuse
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>> Re: Re: DirectX 10, no longer a Vista exclusive?
Nay bother Brendan :)

A lot of peeps seem to be confused about this, once again due to the Inq posting rubbish!!!

In fairness to them, they apologised, and admitted they were wrong in the link posted above. Unfortunately, in the days pre-ceedig their admission of bum info, many sites had posted the info, and a lot of people were still hanging onto the hope that the original article might be right.

But it wasnt. No DX10 for XP I'm afraid, and I doubt there will be

A) Would take away 1 major selling point of Vista
B) You would need a supercomputer to emulate the DX10 functionality in software (there can in no way be full hardware support for DX10 in XP)

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Merc Mar 15, 2007, 09:46am EDT Reply - Quote - Report Abuse
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>> Re: Re: DirectX 10, no longer a Vista exclusive?
OK thanks Dublin. Saw one but missed the other.

Merc
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dark41 Mar 15, 2007, 10:05am EDT Reply - Quote - Report Abuse
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>> Re: Re: DirectX 10, no longer a Vista exclusive?
Carl Sullivan said:
I am using Vista now, and tell me playing Need for Speed Carbon, loses alot of frame rates in Vista, it ran fine in XP. I had to turn alot of stuff down in Vista to play this game.
My setup is a Athlon 64 300+ with 1.25 GB RAM, and a ATI Radeon X1600 Pro 512.


Need For Speed Carbon freezes on my system with Vista. I'm working on a list of games that don't play correctly on Vista. I have 7 so far, all 2005 and newer. Most people on this forum will say the problems are related to drivers, which may be true. We don't own any shoot-em-up FPS games, and those seem to be working well on Vista according to posts around the internet.

I've seen screen shots of DirectX10 online. But I'd have to see the real thing before I decide if its worth upgrading to a compatible video card.

Sander hit the nail on the head here. After sponsoring a few LAN partys in AU, most gamers here are on a strict budget. They usually piece their systems together with old parts that are given to them. I don't imagine many of these gamers are going to be spending the $ on Vista and DirectX10 video cards. I'd love to see some form of DirectX10 for XP. But if it is possible, and if it does become available, its a great incentive to stay with XP. :)

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John Ingram Mar 15, 2007, 10:06am EDT Reply - Quote - Report Abuse
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>> Re: Re: DirectX 10, no longer a Vista exclusive?
Part of this debate is connected to all those sites that show two pictures of a road in a game and a circle showing a close-up of the cobblestones and pointing out how 4x AA shows the graphics off much better than 2x AA, and that's why you should get an upgrade.

This goes over the head of 90% of gamers. So does the differences between DX9 and DX10 and DX9 cards and DX10 cards. All most gamers see is the cost.

Vista is maybe the last nail in the PC gaming coffin. Halo 2 Vista only so at a cost of over $700 in upgrade costs, depending on your PC set-up. Cost of an XBox 360 and Halo 2 half the cost.

Gamers see this and look at their current PC and say: 'I'll stick with my Civ II and Sims', or 'I'll buy some of the older games that I missed on, on eBay for a few dollars and stick with what I have'.

The above two examples are just two of the way PC retro gaming is now the fastest growing genre in PC gaming.

With the advent of VDMSound and DOSBox, even older games are now shifting large numbers on ebay, hence it's opening of a retro gaming section last year. When eBay opens a new section, you know there is huge demand!

Also lost in this debate is the fact that with or without Vista, PC game sales are down, fewer PC games are being released and we still have the problem of cookie cutter bland games being released!

All in all, not a happy picture for PC gaming at all.

Merc Mar 15, 2007, 10:52am EDT Reply - Quote - Report Abuse
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>> Re: Re: DirectX 10, no longer a Vista exclusive?
Being able to join the console gamers on-line will be one of the biggest things in PC gaming history. It will change the whole way folks look at platforms, especially when the PC boys are knocking the crap out of the folks on consoles.

As far as Vista and DX10 killing PC gaming I don't believe it for a minute. In a year there will be huge numbers of people on Vista based PCs. Just go online at Dell or HP and try and buy a non-vista box. There will also be many DX10 based titles on the market. If I want to port my game to console and play in that cross-platform world then it sounds like it has to be coded for DX-10.

Upgrading is painful and expensive but most enthusiasts upgrade their vid cards annually anyways. I skipped the whole 7 series and recently bought a used 8800GTS. 6800GT in SLI to a single 8800GTS is amazing and I ran for 2.5 years on those 6 series but most serious gamers seem to upgrade more regularly than I do.

Things are ugly right now but in a year this will be a non-topic as most will have made the leap anyways. If I were planning on another ugrade I would wait till Q3 and make the move. New chipsets, new CPUs, DDR3 RAM and new vid cards with all the driver issues worked out on a Vista SP1 OS.

Merc
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