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  Re: AMD's Barcelona, cheaters never win? 
 
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Sander Sassen Jul 06, 2007, 01:31pm EDT Reply - Quote - Report Abuse
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A bit surprised, that about covers my sentiments. Can't really say I put it beyond them, but can't say I expected them to play these cards, not after Henri Richard's stance on the matter, or the fact that AMD is currently fighting a legal battle with Intel which partly concerns this very same topic. But there's the proof that some corporations will go to great lengths to sell their underperforming products.

Best regards,


Sander Sassen
Editor in Chief - Hardware Analysis
ssassen@hardwareanalysis.com
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mothow Jul 06, 2007, 01:44pm EDT Reply - Quote - Report Abuse
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>> Re: Re: AMD's Barcelona, cheaters never win?
Super XP isnt gonna like this.I cant wait to see his reply.


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Bitmap Jul 06, 2007, 01:50pm EDT Reply - Quote - Report Abuse
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>> Re: Re: AMD's Barcelona, cheaters never win?
Mothow, you took the words right out of my mouth. :D

________
"None of you understand. I'm not locked up in here with you. YOU'RE locked up in here with ME." - Walter Kovacs, A.K.A. Rorschach.
CrAsHnBuRnXp Jul 06, 2007, 01:57pm EDT Reply - Quote - Report Abuse
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>> Re: Re: AMD's Barcelona, cheaters never win?
Everyone seems to be forgetting that AMD has always been able to keep up to speed with Intel with their lower clock speeds. So how can one say "However the fastest Barcelona processor we will see in September is only a 2.0GHz, not a 2.6GHz, which will be severely handicapped in performance when compared to Intel's offerings."? Last time I checked, an A64 at 2.6GHz beat out a P4 at over 3GHz.

Sander Sassen Jul 06, 2007, 02:01pm EDT Reply - Quote - Report Abuse
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>> Re: Re: AMD's Barcelona, cheaters never win?
Mark,

That used to be true, but as I describe in the column, a fictitious 2.6GHz Barcelona quad-core performs the same as a 2.66GHz Intel Xeon 5355, hence when introduced at a 2GHz clockspeed AMD will always be at a disadvantage.

Best regards,

Sander Sassen
Editor in Chief - Hardware Analysis
ssassen@hardwareanalysis.com
CrAsHnBuRnXp Jul 06, 2007, 02:04pm EDT Reply - Quote - Report Abuse
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>> Re: Re: AMD's Barcelona, cheaters never win?
That just brings me back to my point about the A64 at 2.xGHz vs a P4 @ 3.xGhz and the A64 prevailed.

Sander Sassen Jul 06, 2007, 02:09pm EDT Reply - Quote - Report Abuse
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>> Re: Re: AMD's Barcelona, cheaters never win?
Mark?

You not had your morning coffee yet? Let me repeat what I just wrote: a 2.6GHz quad-core Barcelona just about keeps pace with a 2.66GHz quad-core Intel Xeon. Hence when AMD launches in September at 2GHz, this is a 600MHz reduction in clockspeed (!), that will result in a significant reduction in performance.

Best regards,

Sander Sassen
Editor in Chief - Hardware Analysis
ssassen@hardwareanalysis.com
FordGT90Concept Jul 06, 2007, 02:17pm EDT Reply - Quote - Report Abuse
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>> Re: Re: AMD's Barcelona, cheaters never win?
Another difference to note is that the only thing holding Clovertowns back is the absurd amount of heat they produce. That will be addressed very soon with the 45nm process most likely making a > 3 GHz not only possible but probable.

The dual core processors of Core microarchitecture have demonstrated that they have tons of breathing room (3.5 GHz+ on air). Intel is just waiting for the right moment to jump all over AMD with > 3 GHz models.


On another note, I think it's time to whip out the screenies:
http://img234.imageshack.us/img234/1288/superxpny0.png
http://www.hardwareanalysis.com/content/topic/63752/?o=40#463999

Time to "bite yourself in the ass & video tape it." XD

________________________
If I remember what I forgot, I have not forgotten it.
Bitmap Jul 06, 2007, 02:32pm EDT Reply - Quote - Report Abuse
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>> Re: Re: AMD's Barcelona, cheaters never win?
One word: Nice. :)

________
"None of you understand. I'm not locked up in here with you. YOU'RE locked up in here with ME." - Walter Kovacs, A.K.A. Rorschach.
CrAsHnBuRnXp Jul 06, 2007, 02:39pm EDT Reply - Quote - Report Abuse
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Edited: Jul 06, 2007, 02:43pm EDT

 
>> Re: Re: AMD's Barcelona, cheaters never win?
Sander Sassen said:
Mark?

You not had your morning coffee yet? Let me repeat what I just wrote: a 2.6GHz quad-core Barcelona just about keeps pace with a 2.66GHz quad-core Intel Xeon. Hence when AMD launches in September at 2GHz, this is a 600MHz reduction in clockspeed (!), that will result in a significant reduction in performance.

Best regards,

For one, I dont drink coffee. Two, I did indeed just basically wake up when I read/made that post. Third, even if that is the case, if 600Mhz is the only deciding factor of it being slower than the 2.66Ghz Intel Xeon, whats not stopping us from just overclocking it 700Mhz or so? Fourth, if I recall correctly, the Barcelona is just a server processor meaning not for desktop use. It is an Opteron processor. So that means its going to be highly expensive. More than what the average desktop user can afford. By the time they release the Phenom core the for us desktop people (our Barcelona equivalent), the clock speed should be faster and bugs worked out

Sander Sassen Jul 06, 2007, 02:41pm EDT Reply - Quote - Report Abuse
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>> Re: Re: AMD's Barcelona, cheaters never win?
Mark,

Alright, have a beverage of your choice then, fyi I don't drink coffee either.

whats not stopping us from just overclocking it 700Mhz or so?


Well, for starters, if AMD has 700MHz of headroom wouldn't you think they'd use that, rather than let Intel run all over them?

Best regards,

Sander Sassen
Editor in Chief - Hardware Analysis
ssassen@hardwareanalysis.com
Bitmap Jul 06, 2007, 02:41pm EDT Reply - Quote - Report Abuse
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>> Re: Re: AMD's Barcelona, cheaters never win?
Don't quote me, but I believe there is something faulty with the architecture to the point that anything past 2.0 GHz causes error and/or overheating. Again, don't quote me. I may be wrong.

________
"None of you understand. I'm not locked up in here with you. YOU'RE locked up in here with ME." - Walter Kovacs, A.K.A. Rorschach.
CrAsHnBuRnXp Jul 06, 2007, 02:44pm EDT Reply - Quote - Report Abuse
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>> Re: Re: AMD's Barcelona, cheaters never win?
Sander Sassen said:
Mark,

Alright, have a beverage of your choice then, fyi I don't drink coffee either.

whats not stopping us from just overclocking it 700Mhz or so?


Well, for starters, if AMD has 700MHz of headroom wouldn't you think they'd use that, rather than let Intel run all over them?

Best regards,

I edited my previous post.

Last I checked, AMD was more concerned about the power the CPU put out. They wanted to first focus on power efficiency and then clock speed. Hence why faster models are coming later rather than sooner.

FordGT90Concept Jul 06, 2007, 03:00pm EDT Reply - Quote - Report Abuse
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Edited: Jul 06, 2007, 03:23pm EDT

 
>> Re: Re: AMD's Barcelona, cheaters never win?
Bobby Phillipps said:
Don't quote me, but I believe there is something faulty with the architecture to the point that anything past 2.0 GHz causes error and/or overheating. Again, don't quote me. I may be wrong.

I quoted you! XD

As I said back in December in that picture/thread, K8 architecture has been riding the limits from about 2004 on. Then they go and make the chip more complex pushing the maximum clockspeed down. The problem is K8 through and through. It's an old, beat up, and plundered microarchitecture that needs to be put to bed. Judging from roadmaps, I don't see anything from AMD that will contend with Nehalem which could easily be Core microarchitecture all over again leap frogging the already leap frogged AMD.

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If I remember what I forgot, I have not forgotten it.
Bitmap Jul 06, 2007, 05:09pm EDT Reply - Quote - Report Abuse
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>> Re: Re: AMD's Barcelona, cheaters never win?
FordGT90Concept said:
Bobby Phillipps said:
Don't quote me, but I believe there is something faulty with the architecture to the point that anything past 2.0 GHz causes error and/or overheating. Again, don't quote me. I may be wrong.

I quoted you! XD

Noooo!!!

________
"None of you understand. I'm not locked up in here with you. YOU'RE locked up in here with ME." - Walter Kovacs, A.K.A. Rorschach.
John Ingram Jul 06, 2007, 05:12pm EDT Reply - Quote - Report Abuse
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>> Re: Re: AMD's Barcelona, cheaters never win?
This will only get worse as PC gaming collapses and associated high end PC sales continue to drop because of it. With PC game sales down in each of the last 6 years according to NPD, and home PC sales down over 30% in 2 years in both the U.S. and the U.K., high end graphic card, processor and soundcard companies are worried. Hence more and more hype on the gaming sites followed by very mundane review scores, whether we're talking about PC games or the associated hardware. The lack of gamers interest in Vista is a good example of this.

By it's very nature, the huge growth in casual and independent gaming along with retro gaming (thanks to DOSBox, VDMSound and the XP Compatibility option) is going to hurt high end PC and associated sales, because, quite simply, gamers will not need to upgrade.

I am not a real hardcore gamer, but I do won Supreme Commander and t Company of Heroes and Oblivion, but with less than half a dozen AAA PC tiles released so far in 2007, despite being more than half way through the year, it is doubtful that even in a couple years there would be more than 3 or 4 games I would want. That would not be enough to warrant a huge outlay for a high end Vista system to play that few, so I will probably continue to play games from my current collection and consider the eBay retro section or abandonware sites to get the retro games that I d not own.

This all stated going wrong when more casual gamers realised how they were being ripped off with new graphic card name usage. With XT suddenly meaning 'not as good' not better, and higher numbers not necessarily meaning a faster graphic card/hard drive/motherboard/CPU or PC. The final break with consumers is coming to it's obvious final conclusion. PC game sales down over 50% in 10 years and home PC sales at there lowest in around 5 years is a sure sign of this. AMD's 'trickery' is just a sign of the panic setting in as technology companies start coming to terms with this decline that will get worse before it doesn't get better.

Dublin_Gunner Jul 06, 2007, 05:29pm EDT Reply - Quote - Report Abuse
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>> Re: Re: AMD's Barcelona, cheaters never win?
Whoa John, who's talking about gaming here? (I know you like to bring gaming and the decline of PC gaming inparticular and your associated doom and gloom into most threas)


Mark, why you bring up P4 V A64 is confusing :/ K10 is basically a more complex K8, yet Intel kick K8 all over the place with Core 2.

Also, we're talking about server chips here, the bread and butter. Those chips WILL NOT be overclocked in servers. So Intel will still have the fastest products available to SI's for probably another year, and it also has a new architecture coming quite soon (nehalem) and an update to Core coming soon too (penryn).

I fear the situation is very grim for AMD

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John Ingram Jul 06, 2007, 05:34pm EDT Reply - Quote - Report Abuse
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>> Re: Re: AMD's Barcelona, cheaters never win?
DublinGunner - when the BS moves into the Server market how much worse do you think it will get in the consumer market? And AMD actions have been learnt from the consumer side of the market and being brought into the business model. That's why what happens in the consumer side of the market is very relevant IMHO.

I just like to show how many threads are connected when we have a media that likes to pick one thing apart then the next but never looks at it holistically.

Bitmap Jul 06, 2007, 07:06pm EDT Reply - Quote - Report Abuse
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>> Re: Re: AMD's Barcelona, cheaters never win?
I don't know. I think people will still upgrade, mostly for the sheer "Mine's better than your's" factor. Obviously the rate would decrease, but I'm not sure if it would be noticeable.

________
"None of you understand. I'm not locked up in here with you. YOU'RE locked up in here with ME." - Walter Kovacs, A.K.A. Rorschach.
andrew kairis Jul 06, 2007, 08:05pm EDT Reply - Quote - Report Abuse
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Edited: Jul 06, 2007, 08:09pm EDT

 
>> Re: Re: AMD's Barcelona, cheaters never win?
Mark Allen said:
Everyone seems to be forgetting that AMD has always been able to keep up to speed with Intel with their lower clock speeds. So how can one say "However the fastest Barcelona processor we will see in September is only a 2.0GHz, not a 2.6GHz, which will be severely handicapped in performance when compared to Intel's offerings."? Last time I checked, an A64 at 2.6GHz beat out a P4 at over 3GHz.


The biggest point in that statement you make is A64 beats a PENTIUM 4!
Netburst!
NOT Core 2 duo.

Core 2 duo has higher IPC rating than amd's finest.
I was an amd fanboy all through the super 7 up to socket 462... but can't argue with benchmarks... Core 2 duo rules the day. We will still have to see if AMD will be able to answer it or not. I would wager no just because at the crux of the proc is still the old k8 design, CD2 is new, barcelona is more like a refresh with two more cores glues on.

If i am mistaken, just inform me, no flame please.


ian elliott Jul 06, 2007, 08:58pm EDT Reply - Quote - Report Abuse
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>> Re: Re: AMD's Barcelona, cheaters never win?
AMD clearly haven't got their act together. I still have a single core and I'll be getting a Q6600 Quad core processor around 22nd july. AMDs desktops processors are not due until next year. There is only one choice at the moment its core2. AMD will be losing a lot of money bringing out a inferior product so late, just like they did with the HD2900XT and they will have to sell them cheap if Intel are so far ahead by the time they are released.

As for lying about results, I always wait until I see unbiased impartial benchmarks before I buy any product. I know AMD wants to look good but this is making them look stupid and hypocritical.


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