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  Re: AMD's Barcelona, cheaters never win? 
 
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Albert Crocker Jul 06, 2007, 09:11pm EDT Report Abuse
>> PC Gaming Funeral
John Ingram said:
This will only get worse as PC gaming collapses and associated high end PC sales continue to drop because of it. ...


I've been listening to people tell me about the death of PC gaming for YEARS now. Any day, any minute, it will happen. Just one more year. Or maybe two or three. Or maybe five? I have magazines from 1997 telling me that PC gaming is breathing it's last. When is this "dead" body going to actually give up the ghost? I could only wish that if my doctor ever tells me I've only got six months to live that I'm in as bad a shape as PC gaming is.

[Sorry for the OT interruption -- back to your regularly scheduled 'impending demise' topic... today it's AMD...]

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Gerritt Jul 06, 2007, 09:28pm EDT Report Abuse
>> Re: Re: AMD's Barcelona, cheaters never win?
Folks,
As someone else on this board has said, "Don't count AMD out yet".
There was a time when I would rather slit my throat than put an AMD into a system, but now over half my systems are AMD.
As a semi-rational being I am allowed to change my mind based upon facts and a changing environment.

Any new builds I am making for clients now are based on Intel platforms; for the most part.
My next build for my home/office will also most likely be Intel.
As for a build 12-18months from now, only time, and the facts will tell.

Someone mentioned "gaming systems".
PC Gaming systems are more reliant on core speed over number of cores right now, but if the folks can write code for multiple consoles, some of which are multicore, why can't they write multithreaded code for the PC just as easily? The programing support is there, they just aren't making the effort as most folks do game on consoles. Me personally, I own a Sega Genesis and a PS2. I still fire up Mortal Combat for chuckles every 6 months or so, and my kids use the PS2 for DDR (good excercise for the pups).

I was an early adopter of multi-processing systems starting with my Tiger MB and dual PIIs. My present backup system is a Supermicro with dual Xeons with hyperthreading giving the equivilent of 4 processors. I run between 65 and 85 processes as a norm, and this is where multi-core/processor systems shine, not on throughput for a single application or process. This is what makes them great for Servers, or a multitude of services.

I hate the "big business" aspect of the Intel/AMD, ATI/NVidia, Crossfire/SLi battles, but without these battles we wouldn't have the choices we have and we'd most likely still be running a fast x486. It is my hope that AMD can step up to the plate, and soon.

Gerritt

Ad Astra Per Aspera
(A rough road leads to the Stars)
We all know what we know, and everyone else knows we are wrong.
System Specifications in BIO
Dion Barrier Jul 06, 2007, 10:22pm EDT Report Abuse
>> Re: Re: AMD's Barcelona, cheaters never win?
I'm kind of surprised that no one has brought up the rather serious bugs and misfeatures found within most (if not all) of the Core 2 based architectures. Many of which either do not have a work around or are quite impractical. Yes, the Core 2 ran past the Athlon 64 but at what cost? I get the very strong impression that Intel jumped out of the gate far too early with the Core 2. I think it likely that they're running on fumes about now...

Merc Jul 06, 2007, 11:23pm EDT Report Abuse
>> Re: Re: AMD's Barcelona, cheaters never win?
Intel has had several lousy processors over the last few years and was soundly beaten by AMD for a healthy stretch time. They lost market share, they lost prestige and they lost their way. AMD beat the odds and took it to Intel and I was a huge AMD fan for years. They mad a great product and beat the giant. Intel misfired over and over again and embarrassed themselves completely.

Here is the kicker folks. Intel can afford to misfire. In fact, they can afford to misfire several times, remake themselves and develop what is arguably the best x86 CPU ever made, the Core 2. They have incredibly deep pockets and a few billion dollars is nothing to them.

AMD can't. They cannot afford to make a mistake. After investing in ATI and losing all that market share back to Intel they are broke and desperate. Barcelona is a must win. Unfortunately it appears that it isn't a Core 2 killer, at least at this time and it really needed to be.

Can AMD survive? Probably, at least for awhile. It would be in all of our best interest that AMD pulls a rabbit out of the hat. A world with just Intel seems very boring to me. I no longer have faith however, and it seems like it may be a long while, in tech time, before some thing revolutionary comes out of AMD labs again.

My advice is if you are building a low end rig plug and X2 in there. They are great chips and are deeply discounted now. Let's hope 2008 is full of surprises form AMD but 2007 is a bust gents. Suck it up and face it.

Merc
Modified Lian Li PC 7077A
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Charles M. Dawson Jul 06, 2007, 11:24pm EDT Report Abuse
>> Re: Re: AMD's Barcelona, cheaters never win?
I'm still satisfied with my OC'd, single-core FX-55 and 8800. What's all the fuss over?:cool:

Charles

phil Jul 06, 2007, 11:46pm EDT Report Abuse
>> Re: Re: AMD's Barcelona, cheaters never win?
Mark Allen said:
, if 600Mhz is the only deciding factor of it being slower than the 2.66Ghz Intel Xeon, whats not stopping us from just overclocking it 700Mhz or so? Fourth, if I recall correctly, the Barcelona is just a server processor meaning not for desktop use. It is an Opteron processor. So that means its going to be highly expensive. More than what the average desktop user can afford.


i dont mean to poke holes in you mark... but if a company was going to buy a big expensive order of servers (because it's a server proc) , why would they hire a tech to overclock them all? (they could have just spent the $300 per cpu on something more useful)..and there's not exactly alot of cooling head room in a rackmount.

anyways.. amds marketing is a joke, and unlike mark , i do mean to poke it full of holes, unfortunately i don't have my poking stick, and am short on time.. so in reponse to the title.

"i hope not" , and "they should be lined up with lawyers, tax agents, and polititions and there faces stuffed with bullshit, until death by vomitting occurs".. after all that's seems to but they're doing to the public. eye for an eye

---
can't access HWA unless I use a proxy... lol

pfft ..f**k that! (almost sounds like work)
Brandon DeCoppel Jul 07, 2007, 12:01am EDT Report Abuse
>> Re: Re: AMD's Barcelona, cheaters never win?
Dion Barrier said:
I'm kind of surprised that no one has brought up the rather serious bugs and misfeatures found within most (if not all) of the Core 2 based architectures. Many of which either do not have a work around or are quite impractical. Yes, the Core 2 ran past the Athlon 64 but at what cost? I get the very strong impression that Intel jumped out of the gate far too early with the Core 2. I think it likely that they're running on fumes about now...


What serious bugs and mis-feaures, I was not aware of any? :blush:

Lovin' Windows 7
Dion Barrier Jul 07, 2007, 12:17am EDT Report Abuse
>> Re: Re: AMD's Barcelona, cheaters never win?
Brandon DeCoppel said:
Dion Barrier said:
I'm kind of surprised that no one has brought up the rather serious bugs and misfeatures found within most (if not all) of the Core 2 based architectures. Many of which either do not have a work around or are quite impractical. Yes, the Core 2 ran past the Athlon 64 but at what cost? I get the very strong impression that Intel jumped out of the gate far too early with the Core 2. I think it likely that they're running on fumes about now...


What serious bugs and mis-feaures, I was not aware of any? :blush:


http://marc.info/?l=openbsd-misc&m=118296441702631

If you want a good scare and you've a bit of "background" I would especially like to recommend reviewing the complete errata published by Intel...

http://download.intel.com/design/processor/specupdt/31327914.pdf

Brandon DeCoppel Jul 07, 2007, 12:23am EDT Report Abuse
>> Re: Re: AMD's Barcelona, cheaters never win?
Dion Barrier said:
Brandon DeCoppel said:
Dion Barrier said:
I'm kind of surprised that no one has brought up the rather serious bugs and misfeatures found within most (if not all) of the Core 2 based architectures. Many of which either do not have a work around or are quite impractical. Yes, the Core 2 ran past the Athlon 64 but at what cost? I get the very strong impression that Intel jumped out of the gate far too early with the Core 2. I think it likely that they're running on fumes about now...


What serious bugs and mis-feaures, I was not aware of any? :blush:


http://marc.info/?l=openbsd-misc&m=118296441702631

If you want a good scare and you've a bit of "background" I would especially like to recommend reviewing the complete errata published by Intel...

http://download.intel.com/design/processor/specupdt/31327914.pdf


I'm just throwing this out their but has anyone had any big error happen with there C2D's or are these 'bug fixes' just to make 100% sure nothing ever does happen.

Lovin' Windows 7
FordGT90Concept Jul 07, 2007, 01:01am EDT Report Abuse
>> Re: Re: AMD's Barcelona, cheaters never win?
All processors have erratas and Intel's are no exception. I own a Xeon 5310 and worked with a E6600. No serious problems presented themselves.


And the PC gaming market is still strong but it will never be as strong as the console market because people buy consoles strictly for games while people buy PCs for more than just games. If you buy a console, there's a very good chance you'll be buying a lot of games. The same is not true with PCs.

________________________
If I remember what I forgot, I have not forgotten it.
dark41 Jul 07, 2007, 03:17am EDT Report Abuse
>> Re: Re: AMD's Barcelona, cheaters never win?
We've built a couple hundred C2D systems. So far not 1 has come back with problems.

I wouldn't run anything else at this time, but would still like to see AMD stay in business and present some competition. Its a shame that AMD's marketing has no scruples, but I guess that's the nature of big business anymore. :~

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dark41 Jul 07, 2007, 03:43am EDT Report Abuse
>> Re: Re: AMD's Barcelona, cheaters never win?
Correction: We've built 173 C2D systems as of yesterday. 1 system came back due to a faulty DVD-ROM drawer. :)

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HIS IceQ4 HD4850
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Auzen X-Fi Prelude 7.1
Cambridge Soundworks 500w 5.1
G5, Antec 1200
John Ingram Jul 07, 2007, 06:16am EDT Report Abuse
>> Re: Re: AMD's Barcelona, cheaters never win?
Albert Croker - people were talking about the risk from Japan a long time before Pearl Harbour and they were ignored. So when Zero's were seen off Hawaii they were assumed to be a training flight.

I can't be held responsible for hype in gaming mags ten years ago, trying to sell extra copies. I just look at the lack of PC game releases in 2006 and so far this year, the fall in home PC sales, as mentioned above. The growth in retro and casual gaming as gamers turn away from the mainstream PC publishers and the NPD numbers showing PC sales down in the last six years. PC gaming dove a LOT of hardware sales. Without it the business side will suffer as the market overall is/will shrink. Between October and December 2006 (the Xmas selling season) Gamespot only reviewed 29 PC games. No game got 90%, and only a couple got in the 80's. The average score of those 29 games was 54%. This in the peak selling season of the year. This year will be worse.

.... And Sid Meier has just announced the new 'Civilization', one of the classic flagship PC games, will be coming out on consoles and handhelds only. How much more info do you need that PC gaming is in decline and by extension I would not hold stock in Nvidia or AMD or Creative at the moment. I don't know what percentage of income a company like AMD gets from the consumer rather than business market, but to lose any significant part of it would have to be damaging to at least a small degree surely.

And Ford - there was a time when PC games sold more than twice as many as they do now. So without PC games there will be less PC upgrades and upgrades when they do happen will not have to be so high so fast, this will impact the hardware market - heck, it already is!If only half as many home PC are predicted to be sold in two years than was projected 5 years ago, that's a lot of lost income for somebody!

Dublin_Gunner Jul 07, 2007, 08:31am EDT Report Abuse
>> Re: Re: AMD's Barcelona, cheaters never win?
Dion Barrier said:
I'm kind of surprised that no one has brought up the rather serious bugs and misfeatures found within most (if not all) of the Core 2 based architectures. Many of which either do not have a work around or are quite impractical. Yes, the Core 2 ran past the Athlon 64 but at what cost? I get the very strong impression that Intel jumped out of the gate far too early with the Core 2. I think it likely that they're running on fumes about now...



All CPU's released have a lot of errata.

In fact, the erratra in Core 2's has been proven that the possibility of it actually occuring is so slim that it really doesnt matter. Even Linus orvolds said there's nothing to be worried about.

Besides, Intel fixed any exploits with BIOS fixes to mobo manufacturers.

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FordGT90Concept Jul 07, 2007, 02:11pm EDT Report Abuse
>> Re: Re: AMD's Barcelona, cheaters never win?
John Ingram said:
I can't be held responsible for hype in gaming mags ten years ago, trying to sell extra copies. I just look at the lack of PC game releases in 2006 and so far this year, the fall in home PC sales, as mentioned above.

Lots of games were released, as usual, but few were notable and saught after titles. Consider Ubisoft's bad move with Star-Force 3, Atari pushing DRIV3R out the door too fast, Vivendi basically falling apart, and Electronic Arts' continued creative decline. 2006 has just been a bad year but it could easily recover in the next few years (I'm thinking 2008/2009). There's a lot of very strong franchises that show no sign of ending (e.g. The Sims, Half-Life, Company of Heroes, RollerCoaster Tycoon, Warcraft, Starcraft, Age of Empires, Battlefield, SimCity, etc.). PC development takes substantially longer and is more expensive in the long run due to more support issues and subsequent patching. Additionally, people don't necessarily like spending thousands of dollars on a computer suitable for gaming when they could spend a few hundred dollars to get a console and not have to mess with anything beyond turning it on and off.

I think PC gaming is evolving to be a more make or break environment. The big names are spending a lot of money on the sequels and spending very little on completely new titles. This obviously results in a decline of overall sales because there simply isn't much to choose from but those that do sell are selling half a million+ copies.


John Ingram said:
The growth in retro and casual gaming as gamers turn away from the mainstream PC publishers and the NPD numbers showing PC sales down in the last six years. PC gaming dove a LOT of hardware sales. Without it the business side will suffer as the market overall is/will shrink.

As I said above, the PC gaming scene seems to be in a process of refinement: take what is known to work and make it better. It limits creativity and gamers are getting bored. It's not like a console where the slate gets basically wiped clean every five years or so which sparks new creativity.

2004: http://www.pcworld.com/article/id,119347-page,1/article.html
2005: http://www.howtoweb.com/cgi-bin/insider.pl?zone=119061
2005: http://news.com.com/PC+market+surged+in+2005,+will+settle+in+2...28454.html
2006: http://news.com.com/PC+sales+expected+to+slow+in+2006/2100-100...02613.html
2007: http://www.internetnews.com/stats/article.php/3685921

Judging from those links, 2004-2006 has shown about a steady 10-15% growth in PC sales. 2007 is expected to be the same.

PC gaming doesn't drive much sales. Business requirements do (fast cards for the CAD people; quality sound cards for the sound engineers). Gaming was never huge for PCs except when it originally happened.


John Ingram said:
And Sid Meier has just announced the new 'Civilization', one of the classic flagship PC games, will be coming out on consoles and handhelds only.

I would never consider Civilization series a "flagship PC game." Civ 3 only sold 2 million copies compared to Half-Life's 8 million and The Sims' 16 million. Personally, I play the Civilization games when I am ready to go to sleep (it knocks me out fast).


John Ingram said:
How much more info do you need that PC gaming is in decline and by extension I would not hold stock in Nvidia or AMD or Creative at the moment. I don't know what percentage of income a company like AMD gets from the consumer rather than business market, but to lose any significant part of it would have to be damaging to at least a small degree surely.

When Half-Life 3 or The Sims 3 flops due to lack of demand, then I'll be convinced PC gaming has come to an end. There's no signs of that.

AMD is struggling just because of all the bad decisions they made in the last two years. NVIDIA is very strong right now and it doesn't look like that's going to change any time soon. Creative is also relatively strong. Creative is somewhat declining because their tech support sucks and their drivers are never very great causing pops and crackles in playback. Nothing suggests any change with any of those three which could be tied into the gaming industry.


John Ingram said:
And Ford - there was a time when PC games sold more than twice as many as they do now.

And when was that time? Back when PCs were the only way to game?


John Ingram said:
So without PC games there will be less PC upgrades and upgrades when they do happen will not have to be so high so fast, this will impact the hardware market...

Upgrades are rare as is unless you're talking things like memory.


John Ingram said:
...heck, it already is!If only half as many home PC are predicted to be sold in two years than was projected 5 years ago, that's a lot of lost income for somebody!

That's like predicting the doubling of the freight train industry back in the the late 1800's when just 30 years later, the truck is on the rise and the locomotive is on the decline. Forecasts are rarely accurate because no one knows what the future holds.

________________________
If I remember what I forgot, I have not forgotten it.
SuPeR Xp Jul 07, 2007, 03:23pm EDT Report Abuse
>> Re: Re: AMD's Barcelona, cheaters never win?

-------------------------------------------------
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http://www.techpowerup.com/gallery/2442.html
John Ingram Jul 07, 2007, 03:34pm EDT Report Abuse
>> Re: Re: AMD's Barcelona, cheaters never win?
Ford - good research, but the problem is it's not about home/consumer PC sales, but all PC sales for business, home and everything else. It's like NPD pointing to a 15% increase in PC game sales for January and then someone pointing out that if you looked at Blizzards figures for their WoW expansion just released it accounted for MORE than the 15% increase in PC game sales overall!

We definitely need more sales numbers given out and better break downs, because these generic numbers and multi-format charts, etc are not showing anything. Plus the media will always prefer to 'talk up' a market that their jobs rely on. Hence my belief that If The Sims next month was the only PC game that sold anywhere, but the total was 10% more than the total for all PC games sold the previous month, the NPD headline would not be 'The Sims - only PC game that sold in...' but would be 'PC game sales up 10% in.....'!

As to the quality of PC games going down, that's what I said, but it's more about fewer AAA PC titles leaving a higher percentage of lower quality product. Another reason for PC gaming decline.

Lastly if the only two titles doing well are The Sims and Half Life, there won;t be a PC games market, any more than there would be a record industry if just Madonna and The Beatles were doing well but no one else was. Without a breadth of reasonable quality product you do not have a market. TV has 30+ channels in order to give you the choice you want. 100's of movies are released every year so that theatres a better chance you'll go to the movies half a dozen times a year for films you want to watch. So it is with gaming. If PC gaming continues to see fewer AAA titles it won't matter that the two it does get, The Sims and Half Life do well.

With these changes in the home market and the hype surrounding hardware product because of this, I am not surprised this sort of marketing has moved into the business market.

Dublin_Gunner Jul 07, 2007, 04:07pm EDT Report Abuse
>> Re: Re: AMD's Barcelona, cheaters never win?
But John, you're trying to compare the logistics of the PC gaming market as compared to the console market, and they cannot be compared.

PC gaming has a constant flow of smaller titles, which while they dont sell anywhere near the big franchises, collectively they sell millions. The same cant be said for console gaming where the market is controlled by the big franchises, and the license costs associated with publishing a console title force the smaller companies out.

This is not true for PC gaming, where anyone with some game creation skill can create a game, publish it, and sell it.

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John Ingram Jul 07, 2007, 04:21pm EDT Report Abuse
>> Re: Re: AMD's Barcelona, cheaters never win?
Dublin - your point is moot. Publishers now believe a PC game cannot make money.It will only be a matter of time, if nothing changes, that they decide that console conversions to PC can't make money and then we will have no AAA titles and therefore no PC gaming print mags, a question over Gamespot and other PC gaming websites support and PC gaming being just what you can download from independent publishers. If it gets to that point PC gaming will to all intents and purposes be dead to the general public and home PC sales will drop through the floor as the demand drops for upgrades as the only games are of low graphical quality and do not demand the hardware of the previous big publisher AAA titles that relied on graphics first and foremost.

I don't know how many PC's for the home are sold, per year, but without PC gaming as it currently is, with it's demands for regular upgrades and new PC's, that number would drop by a very large amount I would think, if we no longer get those hardware dependent AAA PC titles! Surely that would impact on the likes of AMD and Intel and Creative and NVidia and ATI?

Julian Innerhofer Jul 07, 2007, 04:46pm EDT Report Abuse
>> Re: Re: AMD's Barcelona, cheaters never win?
Bobby Phillipps said:
Don't quote me, but I believe there is something faulty with the architecture to the point that anything past 2.0 GHz causes error and/or overheating. Again, don't quote me. I may be wrong.


Most Core 2 Duo CPUs can also be clocked at at least 3.5 GHz, but the highest default clock speed for C2D is still 2.93 GHz. This is because the clock speed has to be stable for years an higher clock speeds also shorten the lifespan of CPUs.

I also once had an Athlon XP 2700+, which I could clock @2.4Ghz and it was stable for about one week, after that I had to reduce the clock rate to 2.3GHz. And I used only 1.75V Vcore, which is only .1V over default, so it was not a case of SNDS.



John Ingram said:
PC game sales down over 50% in 10 years and home PC sales at there lowest in around 5 years is a sure sign of this. AMD's 'trickery' is just a sign of the panic setting in as technology companies start coming to terms with this decline that will get worse before it doesn't get better.


I don't think, that this is true: I am sure, that PC sales are higher now than 1997.



Merc said:
Intel has had several lousy processors over the last few years and was soundly beaten by AMD for a healthy stretch time. They lost market share, they lost prestige and they lost their way. AMD beat the odds and took it to Intel and I was a huge AMD fan for years. They mad a great product and beat the giant. Intel misfired over and over again and embarrassed themselves completely.

Here is the kicker folks. Intel can afford to misfire. In fact, they can afford to misfire several times, remake themselves and develop what is arguably the best x86 CPU ever made, the Core 2. They have incredibly deep pockets and a few billion dollars is nothing to them.

AMD can't. They cannot afford to make a mistake. After investing in ATI and losing all that market share back to Intel they are broke and desperate. Barcelona is a must win. Unfortunately it appears that it isn't a Core 2 killer, at least at this time and it really needed to be.

Can AMD survive? Probably, at least for awhile. It would be in all of our best interest that AMD pulls a rabbit out of the hat. A world with just Intel seems very boring to me. I no longer have faith however, and it seems like it may be a long while, in tech time, before some thing revolutionary comes out of AMD labs again.

My advice is if you are building a low end rig plug and X2 in there. They are great chips and are deeply discounted now. Let's hope 2008 is full of surprises form AMD but 2007 is a bust gents. Suck it up and face it.


I think, that AMD can survice, because most users don't buy high end systems:

- The cheapest A64 CPUs are still cheaper than the cheapest Core 2.
- Motherboard prices are also chepaer for A64 as for C2D.
- Semprons are still faster than Celerons.

Also the cheap Athlon 64 models are in the same price category as Pentuim 4/D and they are still faster than Pentium 4/D.


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