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  Re: Intel's 45nm process, a true mark of innovation? 
 
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G. G. Sep 14, 2007, 06:24pm EDT Report Abuse
>> Re: Re: Intel's 45nm process, a true mark of innovation?
get it OFF the carpet... that is your main culprit dust producer.

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Suspended User Sep 14, 2007, 06:30pm EDT Report Abuse
>> Re: Re: Intel's 45nm process, a true mark of innovation?
Whenever I clean my PC out, I end up doing something enw to the inside, sleeving, enw fans, cable ties etc.
So it's always fun anyway, plus I like seeing how clean it is afterwards, the 'new build' look.

AL Stroh Sep 14, 2007, 09:18pm EDT Report Abuse
>> Re: Intel's 45nm process, a true mark of innovation?
I have a buddy who works for Intel. He's a "gas man" --- he's responsible for setting up, monitoring and maintaining the gas (and I DON'T mean gasoline) systems Intel uses in their chip manufacturing processes. He's been with Intel for about 18 years now and no, he's not one of my imaginary friends.

I ran into him this past July in Southern Oregon, and we talked about his work, the new 45nm process and the astronomical yields they're getting. During that conversation, he off-handedly mentioned that they (Intel) are already working on the 30nm process. As I'm sure you can imagine, my jaw dropped.

Intel appears to have adopted a whole new attitude and philosophy --- one where even checking (in their technological rear view mirror) to see what their competition is up to, doesn't even enter into the equation. They are literally blasting ahead of AMD, who seems to be content with putting out mediocre (at best) processors and ultimately, losing money.

I hope AMD is learning something from all this. If they don't, they're doomed and any semblance of competition will just evaporate.

Later,
AL

Archangel Sep 14, 2007, 09:31pm EDT Report Abuse
>> Re: Re: Intel's 45nm process, a true mark of innovation?

SuPeR Xp Sep 14, 2007, 09:56pm EDT Report Abuse
>> Re: Re: Intel's 45nm process, a true mark of innovation?
Bashing is long gone. Both AMD & Intel keep chasing each other for the crown. Intel may have it right now, just as AMD had it in the past. But I am sure AMD will be taking it back with the release of the Phenom cores.

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dark41 Sep 15, 2007, 12:51am EDT Report Abuse
>> Re: Re: Intel's 45nm process, a true mark of innovation?
Irony:

Considering Intel and AMD were once partners (1982) in a venture to meet manufacturing stipulations for IBM, and where AMD was cloning Intel CPUs, I find it ironic that now people like to label one company David (AMD) and the other Goliath (Intel). Both companies had basically equal footing at that time.

Since 1986, one company became efficient, took marketing to the next level, and learned from their mistakes. The other company did none of those things. Thus, one company grew tremendously and the other did not.

Irony is that AMD is given credit for coming up with a new architecture, when they cloned Intel CPU's for years before actually developing anything of their own.

Irony is the fact that Intel invented the 1st CPU seems to be lost today.

Had it not been for Intel signing an agreement with AMD, AMD would likely have gone under before they got going. No one can know for sure, however without Intel providing a stable manufacturing contract to AMD, it's unlikely AMD was in a position to R&D anything competitive at the time. AM346, AM486, and AM586 were basically clones of Intel's original CPU. So this encompasses a 10 year era that AMD basically lived off the fruit they'd been allowed to pick from Intel.

Irony is that without AMD providing manufacturing for Intel to meet IBM production stipulations, Intel may also have gone under at some point. Hilariously ironic to me is that the 2 companies who once became allies to survive now have budgets including lawyers to fight each other.

In 1991 AMD introduces K5, their 1st completely home-built x86 processor. Yet AMD struggles to meet production demands and has poor marketing techniques, all the way through to today. And this alone is why AMD is not as big as Intel today, and is labeled as the underdog. Irony is that AMD chooses to blame Intel's marketing practices for their own sales problems rather than address the poor marketing and manufacturing problems that AMD has had since inception. One can only imagine how much further ahead AMD would be had they stuck their money into their production and marketing instead of their lawyers, again trying to feed off Intel.

Irony is the fact that Barcelona benchmarks are not where AMD claimed they would be, yet fanboys who claimed Barcelona would blow away C2D now look to the future for AMD's return to glory.

Irony is that most of us knew full well the reason the Barcelona benchmarks hadn't been released prior was due to the fact that they would fall short of AMD's claims. Yet Intel has already released benchmarks from Penryn, which will be 20% faster than the current C2D line.

Irony is that AMD's next hope for a competitive CPU is slated for 2009/2010, while Intel expects to have Nehalem released by 2008. Nehalem will be a much bigger change for Intel than either AMD or Intel have ever before implemented with integrated graphics, integrated memory, and advanced Hyper-Threading technology which in theory will greatly improve performance without dramatically increasing power consumption.

But to me, the biggest irony is that people still try to defend AMD in light of their past failings and marketing lies. AMD have yet to show that they can overcome their marketing and production problems. One would think they would be concentrating on these weaknesses by now in order to become profitable again.

I'm all for competition. But the fact remains that AMD has been AMD's biggest enemy since day one. Some things never change, though I do get a kick out of the irony of the situation. :)

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G. G. Sep 15, 2007, 03:00am EDT Report Abuse
>> Re: Re: Intel's 45nm process, a true mark of innovation?
DARK,


Very WELLsaid. (claps, claps, claps)


maybe AMD should dig up that old contract they had with Intel back in 1982 and see if they can get an extention from Intel.

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G. G. Sep 15, 2007, 03:24am EDT Report Abuse
>> Re: Re: Intel's 45nm process, a true mark of innovation?
AL,

As with you and your buddy.... I have a younger brother that works for Intel for the past 15yrs or so at the Chandler Arizona plant. This site Fab 32 Chandler Arizona has one of those new 45nm fabs, along side with Hillsboro Oregon Fab D1D and Israel's Fab 28 all which will be producing 45nms. In 3.4 weeks from today, the Arizona will be in production and Israel will be fired up in first half of '08. I think the Oregon site is already producing 45nm today. My brother tells me that as far as these new 45nm Fabs, they require 1/3 less or more labor's to run the plant and this is all due to increase in automation. An example would be the central control center can be literally run by 1 person versus in the past where you needed a team. Just think....... here is 3 X 45nm Fabs that in a matter of short weeks will be in full production. And the word on the streets that AMD will be selling off their fabs and stop constructions of new ones with even talks of off loading the production to a third party manufacture???? geeeezzzz.... there you go, give someone else control of your product line... wow...

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FordGT90Concept Sep 15, 2007, 04:36am EDT Report Abuse
>> Re: Re: Intel's 45nm process, a true mark of innovation?
dark41 said:
Irony:

Considering Intel and AMD were once partners (1982) in a venture to meet manufacturing stipulations for IBM, and where AMD was cloning Intel CPUs, I find it ironic that now people like to label one company David (AMD) and the other Goliath (Intel). Both companies had basically equal footing at that time.

...

Irony is the fact that Intel invented the 1st CPU seems to be lost today.

AMD and Intel were hardly partners. IBM required two supplies for their equipment so there was a clause in the contract with Intel to give instructions how to reproduce the chip to a secondary supplier. Even at that point, Intel was much larger than AMD. Intel didn't want to give up how they make their chips to a competitor but they saw, and knew, that supplying IBM is well worth technological deficit.

Intel didn't invent the first CPU. They invented the first microprocessor and later, the wildly successful x86 instruction set which AMD simply can't live without to such an extent, they extended Intel technology (x86-64).


I completely agree that AMD is AMD's worse enemy. IBM (through Intel) provided a platform on which to launch AMD into stardom but, they never had the brains to get anywhere with it. It is no one's fault except AMD's because they couldn't ask for a better situation to be put in.

________________________
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AL Stroh Sep 15, 2007, 11:03am EDT Report Abuse
>> Re: Re: Intel's 45nm process, a true mark of innovation?
G. G. said:
AL,

As with you and your buddy.... I have a younger brother that works for Intel for the past 15yrs or so at the Chandler Arizona plant. This site Fab 32 Chandler Arizona has one of those new 45nm fabs, along side with Hillsboro Oregon Fab D1D and Israel's Fab 28 all which will be producing 45nms. In 3.4 weeks from today, the Arizona will be in production and Israel will be fired up in first half of '08. I think the Oregon site is already producing 45nm today. My brother tells me that as far as these new 45nm Fabs, they require 1/3 less or more labor's to run the plant and this is all due to increase in automation. An example would be the central control center can be literally run by 1 person versus in the past where you needed a team. Just think....... here is 3 X 45nm Fabs that in a matter of short weeks will be in full production. And the word on the streets that AMD will be selling off their fabs and stop constructions of new ones with even talks of off loading the production to a third party manufacture???? geeeezzzz.... there you go, give someone else control of your product line... wow...


G.G. --- that's what I was told as well. Hillsboro has been churning out 45nm chips for a while now and the yields are (apparently) better than anything they've ever seen before (at least this early in a *new* process). They started sending (to wherever they send them off to --- Malaysia, Singapore, ???) off the cores for packaging fairly early and as with the prototypes, the 45 production chips are cranking WAY up there (4+GHz).

One of the things my buddy told me about the 45nm design is that it was THE fastest design to fab process Intel has ever achieved. If memory serves (my buddy and I were tossing down a few cold ones and parts of that conversation are a bit fuzzy), he said they went from drawing board to ready-to-fab in about 4 months. Phew!

That just seems astounding to me that ANY chip manufacturer can take a design idea and turn it into reality in that short a period. My buddy hinted at a few things but so much of what he does and knows about is (obviously) company proprietary that it takes quite a few beers to loosen him up. By that time, I'm generally pretty loose myself and that's when things start to get fuzzy. Such is life.

Still, he's always an interesting guy to talk to. Working in the microprocessor manufacturing business for as long as he's worked in that field gives him a whole different outlook and understanding of what it REALLY takes to build those little gizmos. The fact that even HE is excited about what's going on at Intel, really says a lot. You'd think after that many years he'd be jaded, or at least disinterested in what's going on, but if anything, he's more "into" his job than I've ever seen him in the past.

I guess Intel must be doing something right. I feel like somewhat of an outsider in all these discussions. I've never owned an Intel-based system and have always been an AMD guy. Not because I think AMD is any better (or worse) than Intel. It's just always been that whenever I was in the market for a new system or wanted to build something new, AMD's prices were always better than Intel's (that whole bang-for-the-buck thing).

Intel NOW has some HUGELY competitive processors (at least since they dropped the prices on so many of them) and I suspect my next upgrade may very well be from Intel. I could really care less what it says on the can, as long as I get what I pay for. That is the bottom line for me.

Later,
AL

angryhippy Sep 15, 2007, 05:26pm EDT Report Abuse
>> Re: Re: Intel's 45nm process, a true mark of innovation?
Brandon DeCoppel said:
Dariusmaximus Glickmanstien said:
Do you know who I am G.G.? ;)


...The juggernaut, bitch?
http://angryhippy.net/images/juggernaut.bmp

An Intel Fanboy site...I like that! lol

Get Hippied out!
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B34NS Sep 21, 2007, 11:57am EDT Report Abuse
>> Re: Re: Intel's 45nm process, a true mark of innovation?
Gosh i miss this forum...been out for a few months...Sander ur the Jam! i think that 45nm process is a great innovation for this industry, especially when its putting the competition on a different level as far as progression goes. Even working here in the heart of Silicon Valley such innovations usually go completely unnoticed....granted AMD has been working on getting its act together, I think they are realistically still feeling pain from the acquisition of ATI. Just the amount of resources, money and people that go into that is ridiculous. And when you think you're done, you've still got 6 months more to close out realignment issues, budgeting, employee retention etc..

I think the playing field is very much still competitive as to the P4/Athlon days, its just a matter of AMD getting in the drivers seat and getting some more design focus on their products or partnerships that will help put them back in the swing of things,

R James Sep 25, 2007, 11:21am EDT Report Abuse
>> Re: Re: Intel's 45nm process, a true mark of innovation?
The article did seem a bit one sided but as a person who has used AMD CPUs in his last two builds I have to say that AMD aren't doing themselves any favour right now.

The computer market is a very fast moving one and it just takes a few mistakes for the reputation of your company not to be worth a thing. Motorola used to make some of the best CPUs on the market used in MACs, Amigas and Atari STs but after hitting a barrier they switched to a totally new non backwards compatible architecture. Intel on the other hand has kept the compatibility going which has been quite a feat. Now even Apple come with Intels due to Motorola not keeping up with the rest of the market. Once upon a time Intel was struggling against them. Just shows how quickly this market can change.

AMD CPUs were more suitably priced than Intel. In many stores an AMD CPU that could keep up with a Pentium was the price of a Celeron, yet due to marketing and advertising your average Joe only knew about one CPU. AMD needs to market more and get the name out there. Word of mouth is well and good but in this day and age you need to have the name out there for it to become well known.

I'm now approaching my next build which will have an Intel chip inside. I'm hoping that AMD pushes out something amazing. Not because I'm an AMD fan but because I want the competition. I want the benefits we as consumers get when there is something on the shelf.

We get better products sooner than expected, prices on the older but still perfectly good products go right down and it keeps things interesting.

Here's hoping the competition heats up. ;)

Zach Beck Sep 26, 2007, 03:04pm EDT Report Abuse
>> Re: Re: Intel's 45nm process, a true mark of innovation?

dark41 Sep 26, 2007, 03:56pm EDT Report Abuse
>> Re: Re: Intel's 45nm process, a true mark of innovation?
Actually, Barcelona was released last week. It barely beats Xeon in some benches, and barely loses in others (up to 12% in both cases). At any rate, it doesn't come close to the marketing hype that AMD was generating. The only thing it really has going for it is less power consumption. But the difference probably isn't worth changing platforms over for a year or 2 when Intel has new offerings on the horizon as well.

Will Phenom be any better? Remains to be seen, but I'm sure not holding my breath after seeing the Barcelona results.

As far as I'm concerned, Barcelona was another marketing (and possibly manufacturing) disaster from AMD. Sad thing is that I'm coming to expect that from a company who provides the only real competition to Intel at this time. :~

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dark41 Sep 26, 2007, 04:03pm EDT Report Abuse
>> Re: Re: Intel's 45nm process, a true mark of innovation?

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Zach Beck Sep 26, 2007, 06:42pm EDT Report Abuse
>> Re: Re: Intel's 45nm process, a true mark of innovation?
dark41 said:


Thanks dark! Could've sworn release was next week :X Hooray for memory!

dark41 Sep 26, 2007, 10:50pm EDT Report Abuse
>> Re: Re: Intel's 45nm process, a true mark of innovation?
No worries. :-)

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Mike L. Oct 07, 2007, 06:47am EDT Report Abuse
>> Re: Re: Intel's 45nm process, a true mark of innovation?
You know ... it's funny, because everyone has a preference. It's human nature to take someone else's side over another - even though you know that person is wrong. Take AMD for example: right now, they're in a very, very tight situation. Everyone knows it, fanboys included (whether they want to admit it or not). But people still continue to root for them.

To be honest with all of you, I never really cared about AMD. It's not to say that I dislike them, or think that they 'suck'. I just prefer Intel; nothing more to it. Right now Intel is the better choice and they're only going to get better. Even if AMD stikes back one of these days, so what? I'll still go with Intel no matter what - because it's my preference. In case you're wondering, I'm not trying to give you all a speech or reprimand you for being human. What I'm trying to say is, people will continue to go for what they like ... so there's no use in pointing any fingers.

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Mr Frankenstein Dec 08, 2007, 09:40pm EST Report Abuse
>> Re: Re: Intel's 45nm process, a true mark of innovation?
Everybody is raving about intels new technology as if it's a reality but I don't see a chip yet. .45nm is still a pipe dream. They maybe working on it but untill the soufle is out of the oven it's still a half baked idea

AMD is focused on saving energy not devouring amps like a fatboy at a pie eating contest. One fatboy (intel) coming up


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