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  Re: Will Microsoft keep missing the boat? 
 
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Sander Sassen Jan 15, 2008, 08:09am EST Reply - Quote - Report Abuse
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The funny thing is that in my humble opinion the software engineers are innovative, but once their ideas have trickled down from the marketing and product development to the actual product they fail to be included. I've seen many demos of great Microsoft software that has never seen the light of day, unfortunately.

Best regards,


Sander Sassen
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Rhort Jan 15, 2008, 08:18am EST Reply - Quote - Report Abuse
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>> .
Iíve always felt that the only reason Micro$oft EVER managed a descent market share was down to the fact that most people didnít know there was a choice, but nowadays, people are clearly starting to realise not only that there are, as youíve pointed out with the list of alternatives you mentioned, but that some of the options are, in fact, rather good, so really, itís a question of waiting until they start to feel the backlash from that in the only place that matters, on the bottom line of their balance sheets.

Itís all about greed; Micro$oft donít put in the effort simply because theyíve never had to. I wait with bated breath to see what emerges when they realise the salad days are over. I feel that, whilst Vista may not have exactly been the final nail in their coffin, it may have been the purchase order for the grave plot.

_________________________________________________________________________________
~ The manual said "Requires Windows '95 or better" ...so I installed Linux!
FordGT90Concept Jan 15, 2008, 08:20am EST Reply - Quote - Report Abuse
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Edited: Jan 15, 2008, 08:21am EST

 
>> Re: Re: Will Microsoft keep missing the boat?
I think Microsoft got to comfortable on top with XP effectively taking a nap and falling way behind. Microsoft has adopted more aggressive time tables but it remains to be seen if they pay off. Aggressive time tables definitely worked for Intel.

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Sean Jan 15, 2008, 08:43am EST Reply - Quote - Report Abuse
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>> Re: Will Microsoft keep missing the boat?
The process of .NET web programming is another sign they're missing the boat on the web. Some veteran .NET developers I've had significant contact with recently were unable to tell me the basics of how to alter the value of a dropdown in JavaScript, how to alter the look of a page with CSS, and were utterly at a loss to explain what AJAX even was.

This is the fruit of Microsoft "innovation" I've been fearing all along -- dumb developers with their heads in the sand and absolutely no interest in pulling them out. Hopefully the technical Reformation continues at a good pace or we'll all end up complete idiots.

Beavis Khan Jan 15, 2008, 08:52am EST Reply - Quote - Report Abuse
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>> Re: Re: Will Microsoft keep missing the boat?
FordGT90Concept said:
I think Microsoft got to comfortable on top with XP effectively taking a nap and falling way behind. Microsoft has adopted more aggressive time tables but it remains to be seen if they pay off. Aggressive time tables definitely worked for Intel.


Agressive timetables are great with hardware, especially CPUs, since (Itanium aside) it's totally transparent to the end user, except that things are faster. Agressive timetables with software are probably only going to serve to annoy Microsoft's users further. This is particularly true when there is precious little "real meat" in the software upgrades. Quick, what does Office 2007 do that 2003 can't? Why should I pay several hundred dollars/seat to upgrade my users to 2007? Especially when "Office 14" will probably be out in a year...

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Beavis Khan Jan 15, 2008, 08:55am EST Reply - Quote - Report Abuse
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>> Re: Re: Will Microsoft keep missing the boat?
Sean said:
The process of .NET web programming is another sign they're missing the boat on the web. Some veteran .NET developers I've had significant contact with recently were unable to tell me the basics of how to alter the value of a dropdown in JavaScript, how to alter the look of a page with CSS, and were utterly at a loss to explain what AJAX even was.


I have to disagree with you here. If we were still in the days of ASP.NET 1.1, I'd probably agree - but since moving to 2.0, they have (IMHO, of course) really nailed it. I can do just about whatever I want the "old way", and I can save a substantial amount of time where it makes sense to leverage Microsoft's tools and do things the new way. Good development tools should make the life of a developer easier - and ASP.NET 2.0+ does this. Good development tools will never excuse willful ignorance on the part of developers.

____
"For every complex problem, there is a solution that is simple, neat, and wrong."

- H.L. Mencken
The.Digital.Guy Jan 15, 2008, 09:51am EST Reply - Quote - Report Abuse
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>> Re: Re: Will Microsoft keep missing the boat?
From everything I have read online and seen on TV; the Zune 80GB player was the number 1 MP3 player over Christmas.
Here's a few links;but there everywhere:

http://www.wiredzune.com/2007/12/the-zune-is-the-new-bestselli...on-amazon/

http://tech.yahoo.com/blogs/hughes/21050

Just my 2 cents................

Matt D. Jan 15, 2008, 09:51am EST Reply - Quote - Report Abuse
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>> Re: Re: Will Microsoft keep missing the boat?

Matt D. Jan 15, 2008, 10:00am EST Reply - Quote - Report Abuse
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>> Re: Re: Will Microsoft keep missing the boat?
The #1 question I get asked by those having just purchased a new system, "Is there anyway I can put XP on this?" And answering that question is not always that easy since there is so much new hardware that amazingly has no XP drivers written for it or they are quite difficult to find. The consumer should have an option of which OS when they go to the store. Why pay $x00 or $x000 for a computer and then pay more for an older OS? I haven't seen Ubuntu running on a system so I am going to start asking around or put on an older system to see. Someone showed me a system with B lack XP the other day - faster than xp or vista with the ability to run programs for either OS. The graphics I thouth were really appealing. I couldn't use it, or recommend, but I walked away wondering why MS didn't release something like that as the new Vista. The ideas I think are there, just not making it through MS development and marketing which is really sad. My opinion is Vista is the new Me edition of windows and to be avoided if at all possible.

BTW the only place I can recommend for new computer buyers is Tiger Direct's refurbished units that come with XP or Dell Business solutions offers XP. Can't find XP on the Home side. Anybody else know where to buy new systems with XP?

The.Digital.Guy Jan 15, 2008, 10:06am EST Reply - Quote - Report Abuse
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Edited: Jan 15, 2008, 10:29am EST

 
>> Re: Re: Will Microsoft keep missing the boat?
If people do their homework; there are many companies now offering New Systems with XP installed. Once the bugs have been work out of Vista; they have the option of updating their software and will already have the needed Hardware.
I have Vista (4 home built computers) and do not have the many problems people are complaining about.( I have one....copy and pasting large amout of data; took forrever for the Copy screen to appear.Problem seems to be fixed in SP1 RC Refresh release)
I just updated 1 computer last night to Vista SP1 RC Refresh......Boots up faster and shuts down faster and no other problems to speak of. I used Windows XP Pro on all my previous systems. No complains now about Vista.
I am sure their are still Gamers out there that do still have problems with Vista........It'll soon be fixed.
Does everyone remember all the complaints when XP rolled out...Alot of people with short memories....

Some computers you can get with XP installed:

http://shop.lenovo.com/SEUILibrary/controller/e/web/LenovoPort...11B7015A00

http://www.shopping.hp.com/webapp/shopping/computer_can_series...Windows+XP

http://search.dell.com/results.aspx?s=dhs&c=us&l=en&am...2&y=11

http://www.superwarehouse.com/Acer_Veriton_L460-UD6421P_Deskto.../p/1505393



and many more.................

Greg Hartman Jan 15, 2008, 10:25am EST Reply - Quote - Report Abuse
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>> Re: Re: Will Microsoft keep missing the boat?
i'm a Dell reseller and i only get machines with xp on them and will until i am forced to go vista. have many new clients that brought a vista machine and are totally upset with it and microsoft. i also agree with one comment above that vista is the new ME. i have a vista machine and have used it a bit but i honestly dont like it as much as i like my xp pro.

Erick Mendes Jan 15, 2008, 10:35am EST Reply - Quote - Report Abuse
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>> Re: Re: Will Microsoft keep missing the boat?
About ONE niche I can be sure: IF ANY linux distro can achieve the same DirectX 9-10 playability like Windows XP, OR the game developers get smart and start releasing versions for other OSes, there will be not even one player left using XP.

Rooin Jan 15, 2008, 11:03am EST Reply - Quote - Report Abuse
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>> Re: Re: Will Microsoft keep missing the boat?
just to add to this whole XP > Vista thing, I'm building a PC for a client now, an they opted to have hardware able to run vista, but insisted XP be on the system. As they have heard so many complaints from co-workers/friends that they don't want it. It's bad when the "average joe" who normally wants the "Latest and greatest" has been steered away from Vista. They (MS) are going to have some work a head of them turning that around.

An people having the ability to know about other choices available to them is affecting MS. There are still PC illiterate people out there, but its highly likely they know a "tech, nerd, geek, IT professional" etc... that can help answer their questions. My entire family comes to me before making a decision about PCs. People having the ability to know, or have someone with who knows, even a little, about PCs can steer them in a direction away from MS.

================================================================
"Even Satan wouldn't use customer service as a form of punishment." - Lucas http://www.ctrlaltdel-online.com
Rhort Jan 15, 2008, 11:04am EST Reply - Quote - Report Abuse
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>> .
Erick Mendes said:
About ONE niche I can be sure: IF ANY linux distro can achieve the same DirectX 9-10 playability like Windows XP, OR the game developers get smart and start releasing versions for other OSes, there will be not even one player left using XP.


I've been saying for years that, when this happens, Erick, I won't be at all surprised if Windows dies overnight on the gaming market, and probably takes a good chunk of Micro$oft with it.

_________________________________________________________________________________
~ The manual said "Requires Windows '95 or better" ...so I installed Linux!
Michel Merlin Jan 15, 2008, 01:30pm EST Reply - Quote - Report Abuse
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>> See how Zune seized that #1 rank in Christmas sales
The.Digital.Guy said:
(Tue 15Jan 2008 14:51 GMT)
...the Zune 80GB player was the number 1 MP3 player over Christmas.
....
http://tech.yahoo.com/blogs/hughes/21050

I recommend readers to really read that blog, down to comments 300, e.g. #292 Posted by wagwa2001l on Fri 14 Dec 2007 22:17 GMT
http://tech.yahoo.com/blogs/hughes/21050;_ylt=AkKlxuMXsDUj4wes...t_count=20

Versailles, Tue 15 Jan 2008 19:30:50 +0100

Stuart K Jan 15, 2008, 01:53pm EST Reply - Quote - Report Abuse
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>> Re: Re: Will Microsoft keep missing the boat?
I am hardly a Microsoft cheerleader, nor do I think Vista is worth the disk space it takes up, but I do see MS doing some interesting things.

I'm starting to see a bit of their vision for things like Sharepoint, Office 2007, Exchange 2007, Server 2008, etc. The whole .NET thing seems to be bearing fruit.

As for Apple, their main innovation seems to have been more ways to lock you into Steve-o-vision. I think, overall, Leopard turned out better than Vista did, but it doesn't seem as compelling as earlier versions did.

The iPhone? iPod Touch? 160 GB iPod? Apple TV? I think I'll pass on these. They're just not my cup of tea.

I might be more interested in something like the Nokia N810.

Ubuntu? It's good stuff. I'm using it right now. However, I'm not sure I see a lot of innovation centered on Ubuntu itself. (Or even on most of the bundled apps.)

I'm also not even sure that what we need right now is innovation. I would say what we really need is to polish what we have, make it more accessible to more people, and make sure that things inter-operate well.

The open source community is good at these things. There is less pressure in most cases to crank out a bunch of new stuff to keep the revenue stream flowing. Lots of little things get improved, and a new release doesn't have to be the major event we expect out of a Vista or Leopard.


CrAsHnBuRnXp Jan 15, 2008, 01:58pm EST Reply - Quote - Report Abuse
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>> Re: Re: Will Microsoft keep missing the boat?
Greg Hartman said:
i also agree with one comment above that vista is the new ME.

I strongly disagree with that statement. Vista is no where near ME in terms of crashing or breaking down. Maybe you havent used ME? Maybe you have. In either respect Vista is much more stable than Windows ceMEnt. ME constantly crashed where as Vista does not. Vista is just bloated. Nothing more. One of the main reasons why people complain about Vista today is because it runs poorly on their computer mainly because of all the bloated bulls**t that companies such as Dell and HP put on them. I have run Vista just fine on a single core Athlon64 with 2GB RAM and a 6800GS. Sure Vista eats RAM, but I myself could care less. I never used all 2GB of my RAM and so long as I had enough to to my tasks online, that was fine.

Depending on what a customer wants to do with their computer is the OS I will recommend. If you remember correctly, XP was in the same boat is Vista is now and IMO, I think Vista is gaining more ground quicker than that of XP in its day.

Dustin Horne Jan 15, 2008, 02:07pm EST Reply - Quote - Report Abuse
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>> Vista vs. Xp + Innovation
As a developer I have a different take on things here. First, it's not the fault of MS that .NET developers don't know anything about AJAX or modifying a dropdown list with Javascript. Well, with server-sdie technologies, you don't always have to, but the developers are possibly lazy or ignorant if they don't learn it. However, what is their focus? A .NET developer may not focus on UI or even web development in general, so why should they learn Javascript? As a .NET developer, I couldn't tell you much at all about Windows Forms or programming for multi-threaded applications, but I know a fair amount of javascript (and even PHP), CSS, and HTML. Do we blame Microsoft for me not knowing how to use the framework to build Windows applications? The .NET framework has been building steam, and with 2.0 it has been nailed. In fact, new features in 3.0 and 3.5 are getting even better (look into LINQ with ADO and/or XML), not to mention the AJAX framework make things like modal popups and partial page refreshes a breeze, even interacting with server-side functionality coded on the same page.

Now for the second topic...XP vs. Vista. One problem is that people had too high of expectations for Vista, but let's be real, most people don't have a clue what the "problems" are when they talk about the "problems" with Vista. One of the major problems is actually that software developers (companies) had plenty of time to start updating their software and making sure it was Vista compatible. Well...many of them didn't...so let's blame Microsoft? I'm been running Vista (both at work and at home) for quite some time and haven't experienced many problems that were actually related to the OS...in fact, the biggest pain in the rear I faced was getting Photoshop CS3 installed and running since it utilized dll's (vbscript.dll and jscript.dll) that aren't registered by default with Vista. This seems to me to be more Adobe's problem. Test your junk before you pour it out to the public.

Now I'm running Vista Ultimate 64-bit at home. The OS does a great job of setting affinity and utilizing all the power of my quad-core processor when running single threaded applications. I'm really getting the performance from my 64-bit chip that I should.


So...I'm just curious...what exactly are the "Problems" with Vista that make it so bad? I hear a lot of kicking and screaming, problems this and problems that, mostly these problems seem to be with software not supporting the new OS, but I don't see to see a lot of solid examples? So what if Vista doesn't support 'all' of the old software. Security updates, etc., are what prevent this from happening. And if the new OS is going to function just like the old OS, why even release a new one?

Before the flaming starts...no I do not work for Microsoft and Yes I also run a linux box at home in addition to my Vista machine.

Just my thoughts.

Dustin

Jan 15, 2008, 02:14pm EST Reply - Quote - Report Abuse
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>> Re: Re: Will Microsoft keep missing the boat?
Why would you want to see so much focus going to Ubuntu alone? You do realize that Linux is bigger than just Ubuntu, I hope. By FAR, the best thing Ubuntu has going for it is its user support base (even though a large portion of that is made of beginners wondering where the Start button or IE is).

As far as Vista ... I agree with Crash that it's nowhere near as bad as ME. ME was a crossroads between DOS-based Windows and NT, so of course there was some confusion. You might say Vista can compare somewhat, in that it's the crossroad between 32-bit Windows and 64-bit Windows for the desktop (XP x64 never really caught on big, although I loved it).

Either way, ME crashed every 11 seconds on average, and Vista has only crashed on me a handful of times (and almost always when I deserved it for f**king around) since I started using it in November 2006.

CrAsHnBuRnXp Jan 15, 2008, 02:19pm EST Reply - Quote - Report Abuse
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>> Re: Re: Will Microsoft keep missing the boat?
Dustin Horne said:
Now for the second topic...XP vs. Vista. One problem is that people had too high of expectations for Vista, but let's be real, most people don't have a clue what the "problems" are when they talk about the "problems" with Vista. One of the major problems is actually that software developers (companies) had plenty of time to start updating their software and making sure it was Vista compatible. Well...many of them didn't...so let's blame Microsoft? I'm been running Vista (both at work and at home) for quite some time and haven't experienced many problems that were actually related to the OS...in fact, the biggest pain in the rear I faced was getting Photoshop CS3 installed and running since it utilized dll's (vbscript.dll and jscript.dll) that aren't registered by default with Vista. This seems to me to be more Adobe's problem. Test your junk before you pour it out to the public.

Now I'm running Vista Ultimate 64-bit at home. The OS does a great job of setting affinity and utilizing all the power of my quad-core processor when running single threaded applications. I'm really getting the performance from my 64-bit chip that I should.


So...I'm just curious...what exactly are the "Problems" with Vista that make it so bad? I hear a lot of kicking and screaming, problems this and problems that, mostly these problems seem to be with software not supporting the new OS, but I don't see to see a lot of solid examples? So what if Vista doesn't support 'all' of the old software. Security updates, etc., are what prevent this from happening. And if the new OS is going to function just like the old OS, why even release a new one?

Before the flaming starts...no I do not work for Microsoft and Yes I also run a linux box at home in addition to my Vista machine.

Just my thoughts.

Dustin

Thank you! I have been saying exactly that for well over a year now yet people still like to argue the fact that the incompatible applications that do NOT work on Vista is the fault of Microsoft and not of that of the original software developer of that specific application. That always made me laugh when people said that. I myself have been running Vista 24/7 (not literally but you get the idea) since RC 2. When Vista was released and I did have the money to buy Vista, I did go out and buy Home Premium. I have loved it since day one. Now I will admit that Vista is very bloated but again, its no where NEAR Windows ME. I personally am running Vista Home Premium x64 and it runs flawless despite my very fast system.

Now from what I have been hearing on the next Windows installment, it sounds promising. They are stripping down the Windows core using a modified MinWin (or is it WinMin?) and it is supposed to be less bloat and a helluva lot more optimized than any previous generation Windows operating system. It is supposed to contain a new file system, a new GUI, security, features, etc. This is not for a couple more years yet.

To wrap up before I start rambling on more. People give Vista and Microsoft to muchs**t. They bitch that they want more features and when they get it they complain the OS is to bloated. If they dont get it they still bitch. Its a lose lose situation for Microsoft. I say that if you have not tried the OS at ALL, you have no right to complain about the OS just based on hersey.

Dustin Horne Jan 15, 2008, 02:31pm EST Reply - Quote - Report Abuse
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>> Re: Re: Will Microsoft keep missing the boat?
Mark -

Thank You! I never in a million years expected anyone to back me up on this one lol! The reason for the Vista bloating is that they are making an attempt to make it "neat" like Mac OS's. Of course, this is one of the reasons I despise working on Mac's. They make me feel like an idiot.

Windows Server 2008 already has a command-line only version! No more required GUI = better performance (although I don't believe you can run Directory Services in the Commandline only version).

And as far as software support...I'll put it this way. For all of those saying it's Micrsoft's fault...I pose a challenge for you. I want you to build an online shopping cart using PHP. Now, I'm also going to build a module on my end to do advanced shipping calculations (also using PHP). When I'm finished, I expect my module to just work with your shopping cart. If not, then you should have thought about all the possibilities of how I might build my module before you built your cart.


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