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  Re: Will Microsoft keep missing the boat? 
 
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Dustin Horne Jan 15, 2008, 03:04pm EST Reply - Quote - Report Abuse
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>> Re: Re: Will Microsoft keep missing the boat?
Oh...and we'll assume that you gave me all of hte specifications for your chart a few months ago...I just didn't bother to read them because I previously developed for your old cart, so I'll just assume my stuff will work.

Somebody should also tell Google that their bot is crap...my standards compliant websites have been built to their specifications but they don't show up #1 in the results. Googlebot must be broken.

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Michel Merlin Jan 15, 2008, 03:16pm EST Reply - Quote - Report Abuse
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>> The real "problems" with VISTA...
The Microsoft shills above are of course hiding the real problems with VISTA. The first one is that Microsoft's constant lying and stealing (its main ability) goes too far this time: for instance they have been for decades selling licenses at a perpetual price while trying to make its actual lifetime the shortest possible (typically 2-4 years depending on your HW upgrading); now with VISTA they bring very little really new, they (intentionally) omit to do the real work their OS has needed for so many years, and they increase prices...

Of course I will someday shell the VISTA ransom, but Microsoft, beware: piling unhappy customers may well backfire some time in a not-so-remote future.

Versailles, Tue 15 Jan 2008 21:16:25 +0100

CrAsHnBuRnXp Jan 15, 2008, 03:20pm EST Reply - Quote - Report Abuse
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>> Re: Re: Will Microsoft keep missing the boat?
Michel Merlin said:
The Microsoft shills above are of course hiding the real problems with VISTA. The first one is that Microsoft's constant lying and stealing (its main ability) goes too far this time: for instance they have been for decades selling licenses at a perpetual price while trying to make its actual lifetime the shortest possible (typically 2-4 years depending on your HW upgrading); now with VISTA they bring very little really new, they (intentionally) omit to do the real work their OS has needed for so many years, and they increase prices...

Of course I will someday shell the VISTA ransom, but Microsoft, beware: piling unhappy customers may well backfire some time in a not-so-remote future.

Versailles, Tue 15 Jan 2008 21:16:25 +0100

Normally an Windows OS lifetime is between 18 and 24 months. Vista did take much longer to release I give it that. However, with the new Windows Seven (its current codename since it is the seventh installment of the NT kernel) it is supposed to be redesigned form the ground up. I mentioned that in one of my earlier posts. Microsoft has even stated that Vista is just a place holder.

Michel Merlin Jan 15, 2008, 03:25pm EST Reply - Quote - Report Abuse
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>> Windows is still presented and sold as a PERPETUAL license...
...then is delivered as a LIMITED one. If "scam" is not used here, where could it be?

Lawrence O. Wilson Jan 15, 2008, 03:33pm EST Reply - Quote - Report Abuse
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>> Re: Re: Will Microsoft keep missing the boat?

Dublin_Gunner Jan 15, 2008, 03:42pm EST Reply - Quote - Report Abuse
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>> Re: Re: Will Microsoft keep missing the boat?
Dustin, I have to agree to every point you made in your initial post.

Besides my favourite OS ever (XP Pro x64 - basically Serrver 2003) noothing comes close to Vista IMO.

I've been dual booting both since very early beta's of VIsta, and have gotten used to the 'problems' - by the way, none of which appear to really exist anymore since the RTM version & subsequent updates (much like any other OS).

If hardware crashes in Vista, does your system go down??? Nope, well mine never has, it simply restarts the driver and restarts the explorer process, hardware failure to full use in a matter of seconds - no data loss, no pain trying to get it to reboot, no driver re-installation.

You can even update drivers directly over the previous ones without the need for a reboot (at least with catalyst)

I confess, I'm primarily a gamer, but guess what??? Havent booted into my XP Pro x64 OS in about a year, apart from one time I was editing video with some crappy free software I had knocking around the place - wasnt compatible with Vista. But then again, not Vista's fault.

My games even run just as quick, if not perform better on Vista than XP - and with less crashes.

Most people dont understand what MS did with Vista - the major points. As explained earlier, thew integration between Office 2008, Exchange Server 2008 and Vista is incredible. Really impressive on Enterprise level scenarios.


I'm sorry, but all this MS & Vista bashing is reminding me of the INquirer, are we really dropping to that level here on HWA?

I'd love to know where we'd be right now if it wasnt for MS - look at the support MS OS's have had over the years for multitudes of API's (even 'home brew' variants), the amount of software it can support (albeit down to the dev, but it still requires the OS).

We'd be looking at our shiny white Macs with Ubuntu wondering how to install a new HDD............. let alone (heavens forbid) try to put out music on a player other than iPod. (dont even get me started on the plastic POS thats the iPhone) Not intending on turning this into an MS V Mac debate, just attacking the subject from a pro MS point of view.

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Dustin Horne Jan 15, 2008, 04:11pm EST Reply - Quote - Report Abuse
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Edited: Jan 15, 2008, 04:12pm EST

 
>> Re: Re: Will Microsoft keep missing the boat?
Agreed. I would also have to say that I've started to become a little disappointed with the content coming from the HWA articles over the last couple months. A good example is the following article discussing pirating of a pc game:

http://www.hardwareanalysis.com/content/article/1867/how-ea-ga...te-crysis/

There seems to be more bashing than "analysis" being done lately. The articles are becoming more bandwagon articles rather than helpful comparisons.

I find myself spending less and less time reading HWA articles, but I do have to put in my 2 cents when something really gets me ruffled.

Lawrence O. Wilson Jan 15, 2008, 04:19pm EST Reply - Quote - Report Abuse
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>> Re: Re: Will Microsoft keep missing the boat?
No one organization on this earth has ALL the best of this earth! Neither does Microsoft or any other software house. No matter what they, you, me or anyone designs, the world will always come up with something better, different and other requirements. There are over 3 million lines of code in Windows, full of conditional statements.

VISTA over priced? What was the developmental cost? Microsofts infrastructure - buildings, insurance, personel, supplies, utitiles?
all paid during the developmental 4 years.

Too, the OS has to function in a world where nothing is right! The motherboard needs new BIOS because the orig. is messed up, that goes for the RAM, Graphics, or any other device/software that has drivers. Vista is a resource hog? Hogs what resource - the hard drive, or RAM, Or graphics?

Some are trying to run XP with 512MB - a Joke! Up front, VISTA should have 2GB for any kind of meaningful performance! Older, slower graphics don't get it either!

Nothin new in VISTA for you - then don't buy it! All the same issues were raised about WIN workgroup, 95, NT4.0, 2000 and XP!

There are few reasons to buy a new OS! It has a capability that YOU want and your current does not. You are part of an ORG that uses that OS, YOU Just WANT it and last, because it will no longer be supported.
If you are not in any of thoes groups, then use your old one as long as you want to. You donot have to change if what you got does what YOU want it to do. Try buying parts for a 45RPM record player.

Why not write your own OS? Neither Microsoft or anyone else can stop you from doing that! Especially since you know what you want it to do or not do and you do not like anything about VISTA!

Last, as the IT Officer for the entire US Army Dental CMD in Europe, we waited three years before switching from WIN2000 to XP! Same issues as with VISTA! 11/2 years from now, XP will be a dead issue, just as WIN 2000 is today? Anybody out for WIN2000?

heat sink Jan 15, 2008, 05:04pm EST Reply - Quote - Report Abuse
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>> Re: Re: Will Microsoft keep missing the boat?
I agree. Microsoft is one of the major reasons personal computing exploded the way it did in the 90's. Every one needs to stop saying vista is a resource hog right now. Vista's improvments including but not limited to superfetch can be turned off with a few mouse clicks. Turning off superfetch reduces the memory requirement of vista below 256 MB. And whoever things microsoft stole from osx is obviously dim witted. OS x 10.5.0 leopoard is not even a good improvement over 10.4.10, holy crap they added stacks and the slightest hint of transparency. People need to stop ranting about M$ stealing from OSX and linux because OSX is even worse then M$ is. Have you ever heard of "spaces" before? Any idiot knows that "spaces" is a terrible rip off of unix workspaces. Heck safari is even taken from konqueror khtml rendering engine code. So people need to quit being stupid and use what ever operating system they like. Vista is a HUGE improvement over XP and should be treated as such.

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Michel Merlin Jan 15, 2008, 05:14pm EST Reply - Quote - Report Abuse
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>> The real BENEFITS with VISTA...
DublinGunner said:
If hardware crashes in Vista, does your system go down??? Nope, well mine never has, it simply restarts the driver and restarts the explorer process, hardware failure to full use in a matter of seconds - no data loss, no pain trying to get it to reboot, no driver re-installation.

You can even update drivers directly over the previous ones without the need for a reboot (at least with catalyst)..........

...thew integration between Office 2008, Exchange Server 2008 and Vista is incredible.

Finally a tangible information about VISTA! (What a change in this discussion...) I didn't know that these long-awaited corrections had finally been made. Thanks a lot! Microsoft has been so deeply entrenched in deceptive tactics that they even fail to market the true benefits of their upgrade.

BTW, have MS corrected a few other glitches, like Task Manager unable to manage tasks (when IE6 freezes, it often freezes TM as well, etc), or Internet Explorer freezing when coming back to a Google results page? This last one being most probably an MS sabotage (MS hoping to entice people to upgrade their Windows+IE), may be corrected in VISTA+IE7 (unless MS also hoping to entice people to switch to Live Search...)?

PS. Thanks also to "Tom cruise" for his humour ("Microsoft is one of the major reasons personal computing exploded the way it did in the 90's" - sic!). It's like Popular Front politicians assuming credit for holydays in France 1936, which obviously was actually due to industry progresses.

Versailles, Tue 15 Jan 2008 23:14:35 +0100

CrAsHnBuRnXp Jan 15, 2008, 05:24pm EST Reply - Quote - Report Abuse
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>> Re: Re: Will Microsoft keep missing the boat?
Dustin Horne said:
Agreed. I would also have to say that I've started to become a little disappointed with the content coming from the HWA articles over the last couple months. A good example is the following article discussing pirating of a pc game:

http://www.hardwareanalysis.com/content/article/1867/how-ea-ga...te-crysis/

There seems to be more bashing than "analysis" being done lately. The articles are becoming more bandwagon articles rather than helpful comparisons.

Thats been my complaint for a while. I stepped in with the AMD bashing via articles a few months back and that quit.

The Article you linked above, I locked 3 or 4 times and it was unlocked by the author every time. We had one mod quit over it.

FordGT90Concept Jan 15, 2008, 07:24pm EST Reply - Quote - Report Abuse
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>> Re: Re: Will Microsoft keep missing the boat?
Sean said:
The process of .NET web programming is another sign they're missing the boat on the web. Some veteran .NET developers I've had significant contact with recently were unable to tell me the basics of how to alter the value of a dropdown in JavaScript, how to alter the look of a page with CSS, and were utterly at a loss to explain what AJAX even was.

Javascript is useless for the most part. Server Side code can do everything JS can do and do it securely. There is no code masking with JS.

CSS has nothing to do with .NET and everything to do with the developer. CSS is good but not necessary. I use it because I do some things HTML alone can't do.

I suspect .NET can do AJAX relatively easily but I've never investigated it because the need hasn't come up.

Remember, .NET is for the business world where the less time it takes to get the finish product, the more money saved. .NET is substantially faster to code than anything else I've used.


Big Beavis said:
Agressive timetables are great with hardware, especially CPUs, since (Itanium aside) it's totally transparent to the end user, except that things are faster. Agressive timetables with software are probably only going to serve to annoy Microsoft's users further. This is particularly true when there is precious little "real meat" in the software upgrades. Quick, what does Office 2007 do that 2003 can't? Why should I pay several hundred dollars/seat to upgrade my users to 2007? Especially when "Office 14" will probably be out in a year...

I was thinking the opposite actually. If they had more aggressive time tables they wouldn't near as much time to use focus groups to decide what to include or exclude. It gives them less time to try to ponder if they should or shouldn't add something and, if it is already coded the answer is usually "why not?" Vista clearly had too many lawyers involved which is why the release candidates had more innovation than the final product. Maybe tighter time tables wouldn't help in that regard but I think they should try it.


Big Beavis said:
I have to disagree with you here. If we were still in the days of ASP.NET 1.1, I'd probably agree - but since moving to 2.0, they have (IMHO, of course) really nailed it. I can do just about whatever I want the "old way", and I can save a substantial amount of time where it makes sense to leverage Microsoft's tools and do things the new way. Good development tools should make the life of a developer easier - and ASP.NET 2.0+ does this. Good development tools will never excuse willful ignorance on the part of developers.

Well said and I completely agree. I thought .NET would be a pain in my rear coming from PHP. In some cases it was (lacks the all important include() command and uses templates instead) but otherwise, I got my first site up and running in just a matter of days (with database calls and a Windows Service in the background). ASP.NET is my choice for sites that do a lot of work behind the scenes and PHP is my choice for sites that are mostly frontend.


Dustin Horne said:
Now for the second topic...XP vs. Vista. One problem is that people had too high of expectations for Vista, but let's be real, most people don't have a clue what the "problems" are when they talk about the "problems" with Vista. One of the major problems is actually that software developers (companies) had plenty of time to start updating their software and making sure it was Vista compatible. Well...many of them didn't...so let's blame Microsoft? I'm been running Vista (both at work and at home) for quite some time and haven't experienced many problems that were actually related to the OS...in fact, the biggest pain in the rear I faced was getting Photoshop CS3 installed and running since it utilized dll's (vbscript.dll and jscript.dll) that aren't registered by default with Vista. This seems to me to be more Adobe's problem. Test your junk before you pour it out to the public.

Even Windows XP Professional x64 Edition is still suffering from that. I can't even install Empire Earth III because they didn't test their InstallShield installer on the platform...and that can't be fixed after distribution. :( I tell you what, a lot of developers/publishers are getting lazy.

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Vinny Jan 15, 2008, 09:58pm EST Reply - Quote - Report Abuse
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>> Re: Re: Will Microsoft keep missing the boat?
HA ha to all I support Microsoft. I support them due to the fact that I don't have the time to spend to learn Linux to do the things I need right now, so based upon that fact many people out there are like that, however that doesn't mean I don't LOVE linux at least the little I do know and appreciate. But due to that thy will retain some what of a market share ,however they are more on the defense(ie from a war perspective) because there are programmers who have a idea drop it out there on the net and boom millions begin to roll (FACEBOOK so simple) shaking the stability of many of these million dollar companies. Now they are in a position to catch up and loses their forcus. My advice, give us the source code Microsoft and we'll show you what to do next...

CrAsHnBuRnXp Jan 15, 2008, 10:20pm EST Reply - Quote - Report Abuse
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>> Re: Re: Will Microsoft keep missing the boat?
What would be nice is if they released the source code for oh say Windows 98 and watch what happens to that legacy OS.

Archangel Jan 15, 2008, 11:20pm EST Reply - Quote - Report Abuse
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>> Re: Re: Will Microsoft keep missing the boat?
Wow!!!.... great article....... nice few paragraphs......Nothing new, nothing to see here... move along folks..... Whats this website for? I haven't seen any real hardware analysis going on since somebody screwed up and got kicked out of the circle....


Aaron Johnson Jan 16, 2008, 02:23am EST Reply - Quote - Report Abuse
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>> Re: Re: Will Microsoft keep missing the boat?
Its easy to say microsoft is loosing the battle but you couldnt be more wrong, Browser market 80% IE7/IE6, OS market 95%, PC Gaming market 99.9%, console market 40%. i use to think sander was quite a good journalist but ever since ati told him to go f**k himself it just comes across that hes been bitter about it ever since.

Another thing like his articals about amd, sure there at a low point but look into the past, intel cpus were pure crap but they still managed to pull them selfs out & now amd is facing the same problem but like it or not amd owns the low/mid pc market & no1 will even look at a cpu over the $800 mark so give it a year or so & amd will be back to where it left off.

also i find it anoying how everyone on this site praises firefox as the latest & greatest but when you look below the surface firefox is netscape so nothing has changed, personally i use opera so i dont get caught into those stupid intel vs amd wars.

Dick Nelsonhill Jan 16, 2008, 04:15am EST Reply - Quote - Report Abuse
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>> Re: Re: Will Microsoft keep missing the boat?
The question that ought to be being asked - and isn't - is what is the carbon footprint of all this bloatware and the millions of app-starved killerwatt planet killers that have to be bought in order to drive it? I just hope Microsoft Is developing a stripped down O/S, because until it does I'm staying with W2k on Socket A.

Aaron Johnson Jan 16, 2008, 07:02am EST Reply - Quote - Report Abuse
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>> Re: Re: Will Microsoft keep missing the boat?
Dick Nelsonhill said:
The question that ought to be being asked - and isn't - is what is the carbon footprint of all this bloatware and the millions of app-starved killerwatt planet killers that have to be bought in order to drive it? I just hope Microsoft Is developing a stripped down O/S, because until it does I'm staying with W2k on Socket A.


lol, i laugh everytime i read something about carbon killing the planet.

the only thing carbon is killing is your brain cells.

A_Pickle Jan 16, 2008, 07:36am EST Reply - Quote - Report Abuse
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Edited: Jan 16, 2008, 07:37am EST

 
>> Re: Re: Will Microsoft keep missing the boat?
I like how you make mention of the fact that "Microsoft is not the innovator here," while blithely ignoring many of the things that have been "stolen" from Microsoft's OS.

Gee, I guess the iPhone and the iPod sync seamlessly with Mac OS X! Oh, wait... Windows Mobile has been doing that on smartphones and Pocket PC's for years, and they've been doing it better. I'm sorry, a business-class PDA does NOT sync with a god damn music player -- I don't give a damn what you say or think. Windows Mobile... especially on Windows Vista... is awesome.

I can open, edit, and save Microsoft Word, Excel, and PowerPoint documents. I can sync my Contacts with Outlook. I can sync my music and video with Windows Media Player. With Windows Live Search mobile (which debuted in January 2007 -- with Windows Mobile 6, but has been backported to Windows Mobile 5 and perhaps even Windows Mobile 2003) I can find places on satellite imaged maps, road maps, determine their hours of operation or call them right from Live Search. I can even use speech to dictate my location -- on my phone. Google Maps for the Windows Mobile platform, apart from being more powerful than it's iPhone counterpart, sucks compared to Live Search Mobile. I can connect to my IMAP-enabled Gmail (the iPhone recently got this in firmware revision 1.1.3). I have Flash support in my browser, and if I had Windows Mobile 6, I'd also have Javascript support. If I don't like Pocket IE 4.5, I could use Opera Mobile. Or Minimo. I prefer Opera Mini, operating within a Java runtime environment I downloaded and installed.

I have a plethora of third-party applications at my disposal, such as Skype Mobile, Terminal Services (which allows me to remotely connect to and use my desktop or laptop computer), Foxit Reader Mobile (which breezes through the 194-page PDF guide to my phone faster than Adobe Reader on a PC), and of course, my favorite, PocketSand v0.3.

And I had it *only* six months before the iPhone came out. Think of the other people who had it... a year and six months before. Or two years before.

Then you go on to write about how Microsoft's darling new operating system, Windows Vista, "borrows" a lot from Mac OS X. I'm sorry, what about Spotlight "borrowing" from Microsoft's tech demo of fast desktop search at WinHEC, demonstrating Longhorn's search technology? I didn't see any large banners at WinHEC saying, "Cupertino, start your photocopiers" in self-glorification of Microsoft's OS. Nonetheless, when Apple shipped Tiger with Spotlight, it lacked boolean operators, something that the redistributable Windows Desktop Search contained. Apple users will need to pay $129 for using terms like "AND," "OR," or "NOT" in their desktop searches -- because that's only available in Leopard. In Apple's own words,

And what about Leopard? How is it that Apple can release such a blatantly lame operating system... and yet, still receive such fanfare? The coolest thing in Leopard: Data Detectors. That is it's ONLY good feature. Time Machine? Whoopty-doo. XP came with a backup feature, and Vista already has the Volume Shadow Copy feature -- and... still has backup.

Or what about that Aero interface Apple was bitching about, and just how much is acutely resembles Aqua? Note: For anyone who honestly belives Aero looks ANYTHING like Aqua, please get your eyes checked, and buy a GIANT EFFING LCD, because Aero and Aqua do not begin to look remotely the same. However, in the spirit of Apple's whiny, "look-at-how-microsoft-stole-from-us" attitude, I'll be the first to point out that their semi-transparent menu bar at the top vaguely resembles the taskbar...

...and while we're on OS themes, I distinctly remember the Linux fanboys crying out "Aero! Aero! The resources that Aero uses are inexcusable! Aero is useless!" After I came along and demonstrated that, even on my 1920x1200 display with MANY windows open, dwm.exe is consuming a paltry 26 MB of my 2048 MB of RAM. Then the argument went from the Aero-rant to the "Beryl is soooo much better than Aero! We're not hypocrites! Switch to Linux now!"

I don't pretend to believe that Microsoft has ever been the full, down-and-out innovator forever. But to say that they have never been, which you basically insinuated with that comment about how in "'08 Microsoft is still playing catch up, just like in the '90s," that's blatantly dishonest. Again.

Oh wait. That was just the ring of the level of journalism we've come to expect from this site. More relevant, mature content can be found in the forums. Awesome.

So uh, go on. I believe you were saying something funny about the iPhone.

Michel Merlin Jan 16, 2008, 08:45am EST Reply - Quote - Report Abuse
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>> Let's keep more neutral about Microsoft
A_Pickle said:
I like how you make mention of the fact that "Microsoft is not the innovator here,"...

The quoted phrase, while mentioning no source, is the 2nd one of the last paragraph of Sander Sassen's article. Otherwise I found no previous occurrence of "innovator" in this thread.
Then you go on to write about how Microsoft's darling new operating system, Windows Vista, "borrows" a lot from Mac OS X.

Found no previous occurrence of "borrow" in article or thread.
I don't pretend to believe that Microsoft has ever been the full, down-and-out innovator forever. But to say that they have never been, which you basically insinuated with that comment about how in "'08 Microsoft is still playing catch up, just like in the '90s," that's blatantly dishonest. Again.

The quoted phrase is the last one of the last paragraph of Sander Sassen's article.
I think the article exaggerated, but pretending it "insinuated" that "they have never been", is even more; and if one were dishonest, it would probably not be the article.

Now A_Pickle's post of Wed 16 Jan 2008 12:36 GMT outlines a couple interesting features of Live Search mobile, and the facts that the desk and mobile Windows platforms have a large number of 3rd party applications; unfortunately the rest of this lengthy post is little substantial; and the whole suffers, in credibility, from being drowned in too many futile other features, from a bad lack of references or proofs, and from this aggressive tone.

In conclusion, the whole article and thread are so full of gossiping and empty of facts or references, hence objectively so biased in favor of Microsoft (the article being the bait, and the thread the switch), that I feel (right or wrong) about the only to not be a Microsoft shill here. So we regular people are left alone being weighted and moderate, acknowledging at the same time the good and the bad in Microsoft.

Versailles, Wed 16 Jan 2008 14:45:25 +0100


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