Is it just me or is the whole "God bless America" thing just WRONG?
Shouldn't we be saying something along the lines of "God bless everyone!"?
Why, except in extremely limitted minds, should the creator of the Fuc*ing Universe care about one country or thier approach above all others, especially if the country in question only holds 300 million of the 7 billion of the specific primates that our religions tell us he is focused on (out of untold, and un-calculable other beings)?
When a politician says "God bless all of us." he or she is much closer to having MY vote!

What do you all think?

Gerritt

Thank you, I have thought about this before.

But even though it has no relevance to me because of my personal beliefs, I think if it is used why is it concentrated to only a few?

GOD BLESS HWA

Gerritt said:

That's pretty much all they care about anyway - getting votes. So when a politician says anything remotely religious, I tend to think it's merely to avoid evangelicals getting all up in they grill, or as a false signifier of humility. "See, I bow before god just like you!"

On the other hand, as an adult without an invisible friend, I tend to take blessings from people as a blanket well-wishing. If a Christian tells me "god bless you" or a Muslim tells me the equivalent, I don't get upset because I don't share their beliefs. I just accept that they wish me the best in the way that they know.

But to get back on track, singling out one country as $DEITY's favorite is pretty silly. Especially in the US, when you consider that a lot of our progress was built on the backs and ashes of others: Railroads built on Native American land with Chinese labor and enslaving Africans being the most obvious and notorious. Pretty sure god wouldn't be too happy with his creations screwing over large numbers of themselves.

Juggernaut said:

Well actually it is because it DOES have revelance to my personal beliefs that I find it so frustrating/angry. I am not an Athiest, but not a "true believer" or Agnostic either. My problem is with the Theistic inturpretation imposed upon all populations about that the Creators purpose is or may have been....I just don't buy it!

If you follow the moral code set forth for humans to inter-relate, I think you are a good person, no matter what your theology is.

I am a science guy. I don't believe, nor can I formulate a causial factor for our universe, or the multi-universe, thus there is something that has to exist outside our understanding that caused the UNIVERSE, not just your or someone elses UNDERSTANDING of the universe or the CREATOR, but the UNIVERSE as it actually IS.

All established religions are nothing more than POLITICAL structures to keep the same folks in power and to manipulate your sense of morality.

I think of myself as an inhearently moral person that is flawed. Mayhap I'll go to hell because I don't except a certain Dogma, but I'm actually more comfortable with that than I would be if you HAD to except any single interpretation of the CREATOR.

Some folks would call be a DEIST (sp), like some of the founders of my country...if so, I'm glad to be considered with these folks.

Gerritt

Amen Reason!

Gerritt said:


Exactly, religion is just law.

Gerritt said:
I think it really doesn't concern me. If people want to get all up in religion, that is their own decision. I won't applaud nor denounce them as long as it stays away from my face (ya know, the types that try to force their own religion on you when you clearly don't want it).

The way I justify all the religious connotations in the US government is because it lacks specifics. It is not trying to push an ideal or anything of that type. It is merely stating that you need to believe in something, even if it is just believing in yourself (atheist).


Edit: When someone says "God bless [subject]," it is in effect saying a prayer to their own God asking for a blessing on a subject. Obviously, for atheists, that means "I bless [subject]" which simply doesn't jive right so you never hear it. In any case, the statement is quite direct and to the point.

On to political correctness: it is dangerous to say "God bless everyone" because it could easily be taken as an insult. For example, why would we want our God to protect enemy terrorists? People who take religion seriously think about those things which is why it is always necessary to direct that prayer to a specific target--usually someone/something that has a need for being blessed (ill, approaching danger, getting through tough times, etc.).

Now I sound like a preacher. I stop. XD

I'm pretty much with Ford on this one. I suppose I consider my agnostic, with a little atheist thrown in for good measure, or when it suits my arguments lol

So to me 'god bless [whatever]' has absolutely no meaning whatsoever, and actually sort of annoys me that people have to resort to pushing religion in your face just to wish you well.

America has traditionally been a very Christian country, a lot of Americans 'blinded' by their faith in what they have been brainwashed to perceive as a 'God'.

If I had it my way, religion would be illegal, and membership of any said 'religion' would be treated in the same way as members of paramilitary forces are -

'Membership of an illegal organisation' and would be punishable at the same levels.

Good feedback so far.
I'd like to see more of the HWA Elders weigh in....so to speak.
Of all the places that I lurk on the internet, this one has become one of my favorites, thus my original posting.
I think that if a sense of community, morality, and continuity can be built across all the artifical borders and boundries set up by secular and non-secular institutions can be achieved on a large scale, that we, has human beings can actually start to agree on things and start to take action, vs. our continued antagonism against each other based upon these ARTIFICIAL constructs.

Having said that, I have no hopes of combining the Intel/AMD, or NVidia/ATI camps in the near future...but I can try....

Gerritt

Also, the whole 'god bless' thing has been used so much you have to really doubt its meaning sometimes, it seems to be used now just as a finish to a speech, and that's it, with no real meaning behind it.

Juggernaut,
I seem to agree with you on several layers, if not all.

To the additional posters and readers,

I'd like to do away with the flags, the churches, the mosque, the synogogues, et all..

I'd rather have one point of re-enforcement/worship as need may be.

I understand that there are a lot of sheeple in the world that need to be told what to do, and it is because of what they are told that most of the seperation of viewpoints exist.

For those that need the Caring, compationate, killing, hateful diety to tell you what you should already know.....well I guess this is the reason I started this thread.

My parents gave me a sense of morality and communal responsibility. Some, but not all of this came from the Christian Church. I've thought, over the last 30 or so years when I wasn't an Acolyte, that even though the Church, or other place of worship, IS/ARE a good starting point, it is US as individuals, that give power to morality or the heirarchial religion of your choice.

If we can stop loving the politics, we can start loving each other.

Gerritt

Politics.

Very interesting conversation. Sorry I wasn't here more timely. But here's my view as an "elder", LOL.

I grew up steeped in Catholocism. Yet something always nagged at me about it. It took me years to understand what it was. Here, for your etification is the real story of Christianity post Jesus.

Jesus told St Peter to build a church in his name. And to pass on the leadership to another of his choosing, and then that ones choosing, ad infinitum.
The tennets of that church were simple. Love God/Jesus above all else. Accept Jesus as the savior of man. Follow the 10 commandments. Love each other and treat each other with respect. Spread the word of Jesus, excluding no one.
Simple as that.
What happened then is the result of, "POLITICS". That's right, politics invaded the church when Christianity became a national religion. This added an aspect of "POWER" to the one who rules the church. And in order to bring in the non-Christians, some of their beliefs and traditions were added to the church. Hence, over the centuries the Catholic church as well as all others became steeped in unnecessary rituals and traditions. Along with this came the hunger for money to "spread the word". Bunk! ! ! The money became the attraction! Do you know why priests have to be celebet??? It's because of money! Back in the day, there was no such rule as celibacy. The very nature of celibacy goes against the word of God, "Go forth and be fruitful". This doctrine was initiated to stop the priests from needing so much money to support a family and so sending less to the church coffers.
So, Christianity in itself is not bad. Man made it that way over the centuries.
The United States's founding fathers knew this. Benjamin Franklin was nearly burned at the stake for saying such things. A true Deist knows this. And worships according to the basic tennets of Christianity. But over the years, the concept of being a deist has been turned into an agnostics haven.
Why is religion leaving such a bad taste in peoples mouths today? TV preachers. Priests raping children. So many contradictions I cant begin to express them. All due to:
POLITICS AND MONEY!!!!

Yes my children, politics and money. Combined, they can ruin any religion, country, state, affair, conversation or belief system.

As for God bless who? Love thy nieghbor as thyself. "God bless you" should be enough in all circumstances. Saying anything else is to make a statement about your own belief system. Or what you want others to think is your belief system.

Comments?

KM said:

Ahhhh....that IS politics

Follow the 10 commandments. In other words, follow this dogma, or spend eternity in hell.

Also, spread the word of Jesus, excluding no one. Yes, you can spread, but you can not force people to follow nor condemn those who do not follow. Which happened, A LOT. What also happened, was that religion was forced upon those so young, they had no choice, they were and still are forced into it until they reach an older age, by then, it is too late for them to make a 'real' choice about their beliefs.




Why should we love thy neighbor as thyself? In so many circumstances, this is not possible. "God bless you" is making a statement about your own belief system. Saying "Thank you all" would be an example of NOT making a statement about your own belief system, as this fits a whole population, and "God Bless you" does not.

I'm very much inclined to agree. It's... this reminds me of the media, as well, but...

...I get a lot of e-mails from my 63-year old Dad that tend to lean on the "Barack will DESTROY AMERICA LULZ" sort of stuff, that usually finishes with a "witty" quip about standing behind our soldiers, or standing in front of them... and then, in huge, red Times New Roman font, "GOD BLESS AMERICA!!!" (insert animated american flag gif here).

It's pretty lame, and it gets on my nerves, being an open-minded, largely atheist (though, I guess *technically* agnostic) and fervent Libertarian. I hate it when people talk about how this country was founded by Christian principles by Christian men... because Thomas Jefferson himself went by the philosophy that a man's relationship with God is between himself and God.

He wrote it many times. It seems as if the buffoons spreading this logic have never once read the rhetoric of the Founding Fathers.

"Religion is a subject on which I have ever been most scrupulously reserved. I have considered it as a matter between every man and his Maker in which no other, and far less the public, had a right to intermeddle." - Thomas Jefferson

http://en.wikiquote.org/wiki/Thomas_Jefferson#On_religious_matters

I AM confused and conflicted on what I believe.
I've come to the understanding that there is a very high dicotomy between what I believe the most, and what I believe the least, and have come to the conclusion that I don't KNOW anything.
Having come to this conclusion or realization has forced me to accept that OTHER viewpoints were as legitimate as my own.

Is there a God or Gods? I've been forced into a situation that I have to admit that our present science hits a threashold, and at that point, some non-scientificly provable THING happened...In this case, there is a God like Function, whether it be singular or multiple in origination is debatable. It is the debate that should take place in a peaceful, logical environment, but at our developmental stage, barbaric and hostile.

Whether or not there is a god of any type should be something we can discuss without violence, the fact that we can not seem to do so as a species seems to indicate that we are not the "end state" types of people that will achive heaven, nirvana or any other elevated state.

If there is any Diety that is listening to humankind, it is up to humankind to come up to the standards necessary to be heard. We will not accomplish this through the politics of religion, but through our understanding of ourselves and our environment, something that religion in most of it's forms seems to discourage in its present form.

I do have to say at this point that the new drive of the "red letter" Christians actually has a bit of an attraction to me, as a moral and philosophical viewpoint. In this case, they focus on what Jesus said, not on all the 1000s of years of stuff (while different, could be as applicable), that everyone has said, or the stuff said about him in the New Testiment by others. But my world view and my scientific understanding have not been changed, just the moral underpinnings.

Gerritt

Very well stated Gerrit. I suppose you could call me a "red letter" Christian.

A_Pickle:

I too lean more toward the Libertarian viewpoint. And I do not believe forcing people into Christianity can happen in any relevent way. And it would actually be un-Christian to try it. I believe I said the founding fathers were of a more liberal view point regarding Christianity. I used Ben Franklin as an example.

As for raising children in the web of Christianity, I really can't argue with you there. I did not impose my beliefs on my children. None of them went to any church with me unless they wanted to, which they did at times. Until the rebellious years of course. And now, two are very devout non-denominational Christians. One is an atheist. And one is an agnostic.

Gerritt said:

This will probably offend somebody but here goes...

I think this is because religion by in large is a search not for the truth but rather a search for security, and anytime someone calls into question any religion it is seen as a threat by those that follow said religion. It isn't until people decide that they just want to know the truth; good, bad, or indifferent that they can sit down and have a civilized discussion on something as contoversial as religion.

Jim H said:

Jim, you've made a good point.

Anyone that gets personally offended probably doesn't know any psycology or sociology.
I'f I can dig through the cobwebs of my mind back about 25 years ago when I studied this:

It seems that there is an ingrained us vs. them (as associated with fight or flight) mentality, or even sub-concience need to stratify our security based on archtypes, be this race, language, nationality, sex and sexual orientation, and yes, religion.
In what I seem to recall as being called the "lizard brain"; a region of the brain that has directly wired emotional and fear responses to the hormonal system, that when humans are confronted with something new or different that the initial reaction is fear, and this causes a hormonal surge in preperation for fight or flight....so we seem to be intrisicly wired for these types of hostile responses.
Having said that, it appears that we can overcome these hormonal releases that prevent us from being reasoning creatures through training, education, and repeated exposure.

As relates to your point though, it seems that the training and education on many levels is geared more towards reenforcing these primative reactions rather than overcoming them....sigh.

The leading cause of death amongst humans is birth. While living, most security is an illussion that can be broken at any time. So the most secure state for humans is to not be born or already dead. I'd rather give up some of my security for a better sense of happyness and fulfilment....but that's just me.

Gerritt

George Carlin, RIP my man.