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  Everyone likes more speed 
 
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dark41 Nov 07, 2008, 03:11pm EST Reply - Quote - Report Abuse
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>> Re: Everyone likes more speed
G. G. said:
Well, there are folks that will fall on the blade when all this new stuff hits the market because they have to have it.... and that's ok... they know what they are getting into when it comes to their wallets... and that's ok too.... but for the rest of us... this is what I suggest, if you are going to build a new system, as I am..... I suggest you get as much as you can with the amount of money you are willing to spend on the out going stuff (i.e. q9X50, E8xx0, HD48xx, 98gtx+/GTX260, p45 chipset, ddr2 800~1066, etc.. etc....).... as this will give you the best for your dollars for a good bit until the new stuff pricing comes down to a level that is more reasonable..... get what I am saying? I know the paragraph is probably confusing.. lol......



I think we agree that for now that is probably the best option for those on a budget.

But my point is that C2D and C2Q may not be produced for much longer. If you want to upgrade or need a repair, you'll either have to buy a new motherboard, RAM, and CPU to upgrade to i7, or settle for much less and a cheap AMD (Phenom) motherboard and CPU with your existing RAM.

There are no Pent Ds available now. There are no Pent 4s available now. If we want Intel systems now, we have to buy Penryn or a couple of cheap Celerons are still available. By mid '09 all i7 versions should be available. Will Intel decide to stop producing Penryn CPUs at that time? If so, who's to say the prices of i7 will ever drop? Intel will be in a position to dominate the mid to high performance markets. If you want fast, you'll pay the price for i7 (at whatever they think they can get for it since there's no competition). If you want cheap, you'll have to buy AMD.

The reason Conroe and Penryn were so affordable is because AMD was close, not quite, but close to the same performance and sold for less. But if AMD can't come back with a quick answer for i7, which buries Phenom for performance, Intel has no reason to drop i7 prices.

Maybe Intel will continue to produce Penryn and they'll become the cheap option to replace Celerons. In that case they still have a foot in every market. The problem is that we won't know until they pull Penryn that they're going to. It makes upgrading and repairs very difficult right now for customers who want to plan for 2-3 years ahead for an upgradeable system now.

Right now most 2-3 year old Intel systems are upgradable to Penryn. So if their Pent D dies, even though it's no longer available, they just need a Penryn to replace it. But since i7 is a socket change, people with broken Penryns won't just be able to replace with a new CPU if they're no longer being produced.

Anyway, that's a lot of speculation. But it does concern me as a system builder who relies on undercutting retailers' prices to get business. Most of my customers want to be able to upgrade easily. Socket changes always make that a problem.



Another thing to consider is that while USA is dropping prices for computer components to offset their failing economy, the USD is also gaining strength against other currencies (because everyone is afraid that no one in the USA will have any money soon, which makes it more valuable). That means the rest of the world is getting a backlash from the USA economy and our computer component prices are still going up big time. Probably not the best time for i7 to be making its debut with i7 boards and DDR3 RAM so expensive as well. It'll be interesting to see how initial sales go, which could have a big effect on the future of Penryn. :)

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elliott trevino Nov 07, 2008, 03:54pm EST Reply - Quote - Report Abuse
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>> Re: Everyone likes more speed
You can always get old processors on eBay god love'm some of my customers just insist on keeping thier old P4 systems as this meets all their needs and they are just used to it Home Computers are getting like old cars if it aint broke don't throw it away. Lately it seems the most I do is upgrade hard drives & add more ram. This discussion is really a good one and some of he points made by various individuals point to more reasons why many diidn't adopt Vista and won't be adopting Windows 7 because people get used to thier system and the majority never have used the full potential of the pc the have had for 3-10 years much less need any new processors. I am amazed at warehouse clearance stores and second hand shops still getting $200 for pentium III desktops. While a more savvy buyer can get them for less on eBay or even a newer pc for just a few bucks more they make a living selling these old pc's with old processors.
I wanted to also comment on something someone else said it is true that many software developers are really just getting out software that truly utilizes the power of a dual core or multi core processor this has been a big reason why I haven't gone to quad of all the software I use only half those progams really take advantage of the system and the biggest user of my resources is playing CRYSIS.
I agree it's a bad time to debut high end merchandise in an economic slow down ZDNET has practically said that BLUE RAY IS DEAD due to low market share tech upgrades in new upscaling standard dvd players and over priced blueray players.

Troy Holley Nov 07, 2008, 06:44pm EST Reply - Quote - Report Abuse
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>> Re: Everyone likes more speed
My question is--I haven't built a computer in years and I've been using a laptop for the past 3.

Does the Socket B motherboard (that the i7 requires) also work with the Core 2 processors?

I was thinking it would be good to either build a socket B computer with Core 2 Duo processors now then upgrade to the i7 when the the price for the quad core stuff is a little better. Or a core 2 Quad for that matter.

Dave C Nov 07, 2008, 10:08pm EST Reply - Quote - Report Abuse
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>> Re: Everyone likes more speed
The CAD community and the related magazines often give "xi computers" the top ratings for CAD application performance. Is this sponsorship or does xi really have a better system? I've thought of buying one just to compare to my local builder, but I can't really see anything special. My last system...

Intel Q9550(2.83GHz, Quad Core, 2.83GHz, 1333MHz FSB)
4GB DDR2 667 RAM
(Qty.2)Seagate 500GB SATA II
nVidia 9800GT w/512MB RAM
Samsung 22X DVD RW

In testing today, this computer is almost twice as fast as the best in my office that is about 6months with dual core. My test was basically opening a cad file with multiple images over the gigibit network. 31 seconds on the new machine, 75 seconds on the dual core.

I know it's not much, but we want to get things done, not watch drawings load. Any input is greatly appreciated!



j s Nov 08, 2008, 08:10am EST Reply - Quote - Report Abuse
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>> Re: Everyone likes more speed
i think you're placing far too much emphasis on whether a hd is fragmented or not... over time, with data being deleted and added most hd's will become fragmented but because of their slow speeds anyway it shouldnt make a great deal of difference... its the slowest device in the system, with ram and processor often sitting round waiting for the data to be delivered, but i cant see how a defragmented drive would alter that in such a way the hd can now keep up..

as for virtual memory, with the size of ram nowadays virtual memory should be becoming a thing of the past, though i guess with vista's toll on ram maybe it'll still play a part, but not as much as it used to, and who wants it anyway, with the speeds of current processors and ram no one wants to sit around waiting for data to be pulled from virtual memory back into ram

the truth is companies will continue pushing faster processors and fast ram but its the hd thats needs the most attention, and often the device most overlooked when building a system

GtoX (capt Guns) Nov 08, 2008, 11:07am EST Reply - Quote - Report Abuse
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>> Re: Everyone likes more speed
The pricing on these plattforms is not justified for "joe the desktop user", and therefore, the market will end up with the Hardcore gamers and Server builders.. I myself could never justify buying parts that expensive, when just like a few of u have said, that a quad Oced to 3.4ghz or a dual at 4.4 ghz is still more than suffiicient to run todays games maxxed out..
i wont be getting one, unless they drop down to a Core2 level.. feels like yesterday i had a p4 and 1 gig of ram with a 6600gt :P

Main Rig--- 2700k @ 3.7ghz ,Scythe Samurai ZZ @ 54c load ASUS DCII GTX570 780mhz@64c load, P8P67-m Pro, 2x4gb xms3 1333mhz, 128gb SSD + 4x500gb lagring, OCZ Modxstream Pro 600watt, In-win Dragon Slayer 140mm+120+96mm,120mm
G. Keller Nov 08, 2008, 01:28pm EST Reply - Quote - Report Abuse
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>> Re: Everyone likes more speed
I know that whenever I build a new machine to replace the one I currently use (this is after I've used that machine for several years), I look at the best equipment I can buy and go one lower and that suits my needs perfectly fine. Considering I'm using linux as both a small server and light desktop and the fact that I hardly swap at all even when doing postgresql vacuums or dumps (2gb of PC3200 DDR), I haven't been one for really going for speed versus performance. The programs will load (Apache 2.2.10, PostgreSQL 8.3.5) and others will be used (PHP 5.2.6) upon a needed basis. I'd rather go for performance and sacrifice load-time or save-time.

htop at the moment:
CPU 21.9% Tasks: 188 total, 2 running
MEM 464/2024MB Load average: 0.47 0.54 0.37
SWP 0/3153MB Uptime: 138 days17:27:03

dark41 Nov 08, 2008, 08:17pm EST Reply - Quote - Report Abuse
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>> Re: Everyone likes more speed
Troy Holley said:
My question is--I haven't built a computer in years and I've been using a laptop for the past 3.

Does the Socket B motherboard (that the i7 requires) also work with the Core 2 processors?

I was thinking it would be good to either build a socket B computer with Core 2 Duo processors now then upgrade to the i7 when the the price for the quad core stuff is a little better. Or a core 2 Quad for that matter.


2 different sockets. 2 different motherboards. You can't run a C2D or C2Q on an i7 board.

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dark41 Nov 08, 2008, 08:44pm EST Reply - Quote - Report Abuse
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>> Re: Everyone likes more speed
Dave C said:
The CAD community and the related magazines often give "xi computers" the top ratings for CAD application performance. Is this sponsorship or does xi really have a better system? I've thought of buying one just to compare to my local builder, but I can't really see anything special. My last system...

Intel Q9550(2.83GHz, Quad Core, 2.83GHz, 1333MHz FSB)
4GB DDR2 667 RAM
(Qty.2)Seagate 500GB SATA II
nVidia 9800GT w/512MB RAM
Samsung 22X DVD RW

In testing today, this computer is almost twice as fast as the best in my office that is about 6months with dual core. My test was basically opening a cad file with multiple images over the gigibit network. 31 seconds on the new machine, 75 seconds on the dual core.

I know it's not much, but we want to get things done, not watch drawings load. Any input is greatly appreciated!




Your system is pretty good, but could be sped up considerably.

CAD is highly dependent upon the CPU speed and amount of cores. Your system is twice as fast as the dual core because it's using 4 cores instead of 2.

IMO, CAD is the one application that really justifies the cost of the i7. It should see increases of over 4x what the fastest systems do now because CAD will use all (8) cores. :)

Memory is also a factor. The thing I'd change immediately on your system is the DDR2-667 memory. Not only is DDR2-800 a bit faster, but it also allows for overclocking that the 667 doesn't. At today's prices, no reason not to get 4GB of DDR2-1066.

i7 uses triple channel memory, so again CAD will see benefits from that, as well as more bandwidth from the DDR3.

Also RAID 0 handles large files much faster than non-RAID. Think single, fast drive for the operating system... and RAID 0 for CAD data. That'll give you the best possible speed. The more drives on RAID 0 the better (33% faster from 2 to 3 drives, 25% faster from 3 to 4 drives, etc.). If it were me, i'd add 2 more drives and run your data from a 4 drive RAID-0 array.

Hope that helps. :)

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G. G. Nov 08, 2008, 09:04pm EST Reply - Quote - Report Abuse
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>> Re: Everyone likes more speed
Dave,

As dark41 had mentioned.... you definately need to change out your 667 memory... At minimum, DDR2 800 should be used.... BUT.... I would recommend going to DDR2-1066. You can really see and feel the difference.

I just recently finished helping my brother put a new system together... he has the Q9450 and was using his older 4gb DDR2-667. After loading the system and doing all the necessary customizations to the OS and his apps... His new 4gb 1066 came in. We installed it and right away you can see the difference... The load times of programs was reduced greatly... and for him his most important program was playing BF2.... His map loading now flies with the newer memory when compared to the older memory...

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

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Gerritt Nov 08, 2008, 10:23pm EST Reply - Quote - Report Abuse
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>> Re: Everyone likes more speed
I think the initial article and some of the folks here have confused computer use in general with how computers are used.
CAD will definately benefit from the new i7 infrastructure, but so will most rendering applications, from picture airbrushing, to layouts, to basicly any vector based product, to include CAM, CGI, lossless conversion of media, compression of media in a lossless manner for playback, etc.

I am no longer leading edge. I have as a primary desktop a 939 AMD, though I do have a Core 2 laptop. Why haven't I moved off of the socket 939? Because I don't want to spend the money on a very incremental increase in speed, and have to spend the same money again within 2-3 years for the same incremental speed increase, this is to say MB (socket dependent), DRAM (DDR 1 or 2 or 3 or 4 or 5), and processor. It just doesn't make sense to me to have to spend $2000 every year any more just for HW just so I can get an extra 10% gain over the last time.
I went from a dual P4 (quad core using hyperthreading) system to my present AMD 4400+ something like 3-4 years ago. I've spent money on new HDDs, new GPUs (three times), and additional DRAM (once), and I'd have to replace EVERYTHING except for the HDD and PSU in order to get a appreciably higher throughput.

In defense of the i7 infrastructure I do think there are 2 things that are very positive about it.
1. It will drive down prices of the Core 2 Quad high end processors.
2. They have incorporated the memory controller to the processor die, thus locallizing the thermal footprint of this process to the component that many people overcool, vs. leaving it out there on a chipset that is usually undercooled.

BTW, while I have a user interactive (logged in and using) session going I run a LOT of processes (general purpose machine, not just gaming) I run around a 30% average CPU utilization, maxing out to 100% very regularly. When not interactive, I serve several distributed computing applications that keep me at 100% constantly. Now I may not make money off of this CPU utilization directly, I may help find ET, a genome, a cure for Cancer or even help find a way to go talk to ET directly and purchace property from it.
BOINC!

Ad Astra Per Aspera
(A rough road leads to the Stars)
We all know what we know, and everyone else knows we are wrong.
System Specifications in BIO
dark41 Nov 09, 2008, 01:26am EST Reply - Quote - Report Abuse
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Edited: Nov 09, 2008, 01:46am EST

 
>> Re: Everyone likes more speed
Wow Gerritt! Exaggerating just a tad to make your point?

Surely you're not seriously suggesting that it would cost $2000USD to change from your A64 to a C2D?

And surely you're not seriously suggesting that the speed improvement would only be 10%?

If so, I can show you some great parts on Newegg that'll get you changed over for under $500, and be twice as fast as your current system.

E8400 = $169
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16819115037
GA-EP45-DS3R = $126.99 (before rebate)
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16813128344
CORSAIR DOMINATOR 4GB (2 x 2GB) 240-Pin DDR2 SDRAM DDR2 1066 = $118 and includes a Dominator memory fan.
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16820145197

That's a total of $416. Leaves you plenty for a CPU fan so you can push that E8400 to 4GHz every day.

Everything else on your current system can be used with this. I suspect the speed increase would be closer to 100% than 10%.

Personally, I'm not into finding ET and wish others weren't either. I figure once ET sees how we destroy our own planet and kill everything, including each other, he'll wipe out the planet or at least the humans for the good of the universe. But I do occasionally use folding at home because I don't want to die of cancer before that happens. Our server running a Pent D 930 (3.0GHz) finishes a WU every 3 days. My E8400 finishes a WU in about 20 hours. Both of these are constantly at 100% CPU utilization. Folding at home allows me to do whatever else I do on my computer and only uses the remaining cycles.

The nice thing for you is that when you finally do make the change to i7 from your current system, it'll be like ET just beamed you through 3 worm holes to another dimension. :)



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Robert Eachus Nov 10, 2008, 05:37pm EST Reply - Quote - Report Abuse
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>> Re: Everyone likes more speed
That's a total of $416. Leaves you plenty for a CPU fan so you can push that E8400 to 4GHz every day.


Or he could get a quad-core Phenom 9850BE for $169
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16819103249
A nice motherboard with room for several video cards ($189):
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16813131339
(In theory room for four, in practice three high-end cards is easy. ;-)
I like the Dominator memory choce ($119, $79 after MIR):
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16820145197

Total $477 You could buy a less expensive motherboard, but it really is worth the price, especially if you want to put in dual 4850 graphics cards. (Why not the 4870? Shrug. One 4850 is enough if you run a single 1920x1200 or less display. I have two displays, so I use them in regular, not Crossfire mode. I'm also working on code to use the graphics card for number crunching. Having two cards makes such code much, much easier to debug. ;-)

I do have a 750 watt power supply, but the thing I like most about this system compared to previous builds is that it is quiet, even with the CPU running four cores at 100% (but not overclocked) 24/7. The only times I hear it are a few seconds during boot up--the graphics card controller doesn't set my preferences right away--when one of the DVD RW drives ramps up, and as I said, occaisonally when one of the hard disks spins up.

Running full load on the graphics cards does result in a moderate increase in fan noise, but not much. I could set the temperature target higher (but below the default) and get it quieter, but it takes late at night to hear it as it is. (Traffic in the street is much louder, even with the windows closed.

dark41 Nov 11, 2008, 12:26am EST Reply - Quote - Report Abuse
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Edited: Nov 11, 2008, 12:36am EST

 
>> Re: Everyone likes more speed
Robert Eachus said:

Or he could get a quad-core Phenom 9850BE for $169
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16819103249
A nice motherboard with room for several video cards ($189):
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16813131339
(In theory room for four, in practice three high-end cards is easy. ;-)
I like the Dominator memory choce ($119, $79 after MIR):
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16820145197

Total $477 You could buy a less expensive motherboard...


I'm an Intel kinda guy right now.

If quad core is a must, substitute the Q6600 (2.4GHz $189.99):
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16819115017

or Q8200 (2.33GHz $189.99):
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16819115055

for the E8400. Still only be $20 more, cheaper than that AMD system, and a half mile ahead of the Phenom for speed, price, overclocking potential, and power consumption.
:)


BTW, a single or pair of 4850's is much better bang for the buck than a 4870 or 2 IMO. I just got one of these:
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16814161244

It overclocks past a stock 4870 and runs much cooler. :)


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G5, Antec 1200
Gerritt Nov 22, 2008, 08:09pm EST Reply - Quote - Report Abuse
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>> Re: Everyone likes more speed
Sorry for the delay, but I've been working out of country.

Insofar as my exageration, look at my build.

I run it from stock all the way up to 3GHz+ on a regular basis.
I'll put my OCed 939 against your $500 upgrade in a heartbeat!

The MB alone comes in at about $400 if I'm to actually achieve anything more than incremental increases.

The assumtion is that I'm running a stock system.
THIS is an incorrect assumption.

I have to tune my environment for good gaming thoughput, but as of right now I am getting good, if not the best throughput on FEAR, BIOSHOCK, and FALLOUT3.

I don't think I'm "Exaggerating"...............
But as my tag says.....I could be wrong.

Ad Astra Per Aspera
(A rough road leads to the Stars)
We all know what we know, and everyone else knows we are wrong.
System Specifications in BIO
dark41 Nov 23, 2008, 01:09pm EST Reply - Quote - Report Abuse
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>> Re: Everyone likes more speed
Gerritt said:
Sorry for the delay, but I've been working out of country.

Insofar as my exageration, look at my build.

I run it from stock all the way up to 3GHz+ on a regular basis.
I'll put my OCed 939 against your $500 upgrade in a heartbeat!

The MB alone comes in at about $400 if I'm to actually achieve anything more than incremental increases.

The assumtion is that I'm running a stock system.
THIS is an incorrect assumption.

I have to tune my environment for good gaming thoughput, but as of right now I am getting good, if not the best throughput on FEAR, BIOSHOCK, and FALLOUT3.

I don't think I'm "Exaggerating"...............
But as my tag says.....I could be wrong.


Hope you had a nice trip. :)

Actually, I wasn't assuming anything.

But now you're talking about what I do for a living, which is build systems. I'll gladly take that bet and give you 10/1 odds. ;)

Comparing a socket 939 with an Intel Penryn is like comparing a dinosaur to a jet.

The board I originally posted is now discontinued. The replacements are the UD3 series. This board will do everything that one did and then some with the exception of Crossfire. It's $119 at axiontech.

http://www.axiontech.com/prdt.php?item=85772

Some comparisons from my old S939 (K8Nxp-SLI, $400 board at the time) with 3700+ San Diego ($350) at 2.7GHz on water to my wife's E8400 ($190) on EP45-DS3P ($130 board):

It takes 14 mins to setup XP Pro (from the networking window until it gets to the desktop) on the AMD at stock speeds. It takes 6 mins to setup XP Pro on my wife's Intel at stock speeds.

Another example:
I got 6064 CPU score on 3dmark05 with 2x6800GTX OC at 2.7GHz (max) on the AMD. I've gotten 17223 CPU score on 3dmark05 with a single HD4850 at 4.1GHz (max) on the E8400.

As far as the GPU, I don't play the games you've mentioned. But I got 6,140 3dmarks on the AMD with 2x6800GTX OC. I've gotten 23,171 3marks on the E8400 with single HD4850. (I use an older EX38-DS5 on my system, but even that was only $200.)

Your info on motherboard prices and capability is a little outdated my friend. You can get a great overclocking board now for around $120. You can spend more depending upon the features you want, but I picked those boards because they're fairly loaded. That, and I have a bit of experience with them and know they overclock very well.

The E8400 is faster clock for clock than the 6000+. The E8400 will overclock much higher, runs cooler, and uses less electricity.

We've sold quite a few of those EP45-DS3R motherboards. Haven't had 1 fail yet (knock on wood). My wife has the sister board (EP45-DS3P). I've had her E8400 at 4.45GHz with a cheap Gigabyte G-Power Pro air cooler. It runs at 4GHz 24/7. It's been running for about 6 months now without so much as a hickup. My system also runs at 4GHz 24/7 on air and has never had a problem. My S939 has been semi-retired to a testing system.

Now if you go with the quad core, you won't achieve as high overclocks. But you should still get 3.6-3.8GHz on air and still be miles ahead of your current AMD system.

So I guess exaggerating wasn't the correct word. But really, your AMD is nowhere near what a current Intel is. That $500 upgrade will be more than twice as fast as what you currently have in whatever you throw at it. :)

EX38-DS5
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Corsair HX620W
2x2gb Kingston HyperX 9600
HIS IceQ4 HD4850
2X1TB F1s (RAID 0) XP Pro/Win7 Ult 64
Auzen X-Fi Prelude 7.1
Cambridge Soundworks 500w 5.1
G5, Antec 1200
Gerritt Nov 23, 2008, 04:06pm EST Reply - Quote - Report Abuse
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>> Re: Everyone likes more speed
Dark,
I agree that my system is outdated.

I do not buy into yesterdays technology when I'm doing an upgrade, and usually skip a generation between rebuilds. This time I've gapped 2 or 3.

I agree that Intel is the bomb right now, and I am spec'ing my system off of DDR3, and Intel i7 technology, thus the high cost of conversion.

When spec'ing a new system I try to get close to the bleeding edge, then back off one product level, because the highest end processors always come with a ridiculous premium.
Even at that, a new MB, CPU, DRAM, and GPU DOES come in at or around $2K.

I've held off on a major upgrade until now due to the major changes in MBs and socket types. I don't want to have to replace dang near everything again for the next few years, though I am willing to do a $500/yr upgrade.

I agree with most if not all of your points.

I hope I've explained where I'm coming from as well.

Gerritt

Ad Astra Per Aspera
(A rough road leads to the Stars)
We all know what we know, and everyone else knows we are wrong.
System Specifications in BIO
dark41 Nov 24, 2008, 02:47am EST Reply - Quote - Report Abuse
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>> Re: Everyone likes more speed
Ah, Gotcha.

I7 looks great, but I think I'll have to wait for MB prices to drop and the consumer I7 sometime next year before I can justify that expense too. :)

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Corsair HX620W
2x2gb Kingston HyperX 9600
HIS IceQ4 HD4850
2X1TB F1s (RAID 0) XP Pro/Win7 Ult 64
Auzen X-Fi Prelude 7.1
Cambridge Soundworks 500w 5.1
G5, Antec 1200
Harry Jan 09, 2009, 11:33pm EST Reply - Quote - Report Abuse
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>> Re: Everyone likes more speed
As the old movie title goes, "Never Say, Never!" More speed and power always a plus. I am in a now 5 year old project of transferring old home movies to DVD for posterity. Absolutely more speed is needed.

I also back up old BETA tapes that have never made it to DVD. My last BETA player is showing some signs of quiting soon so this may also end soon.

Harry

Gerritt Jan 10, 2009, 12:30am EST Reply - Quote - Report Abuse
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>> Re: Everyone likes more speed
Jeeze Harry,
Are you saying that you've got Betamax tapes?!?!
While a great encoding, there have been much better over the last 20 years or so.
LOL

Ad Astra Per Aspera
(A rough road leads to the Stars)
We all know what we know, and everyone else knows we are wrong.
System Specifications in BIO

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