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jj jj Jan 09, 2009, 03:21pm EST Reply - Quote - Report Abuse
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"And here is where AMD unfortunately slips up in the naming department."

Doh. It's not a slip up. It's intentional. Look how it lines up. From AMD you get the Phenom II 920 - it's 2.8GHz, it's quad-core. Intel's 920 is also quad-core, but it's 2.66GHz and costs a lot more.

Now we all know that the Core i7 chip is far superior. But for Joe punter, it looks like you get more for less from AMD. It is smart marketing.


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Yup Done! Jan 09, 2009, 05:13pm EST Reply - Quote - Report Abuse
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>> Re: Re: More phenomenal AMD marketing?
Actually, it's closer to fraud than marketing.

Good marketing can never be used when
you're trying to fool your customers into
thinking they'll be getting something you
don't even produce!

Instead of trying to sell the customer their
own product, it's like changing the sticker
on the nice lada you bought and putting on
a BMW sticker...

Not quite the same...

TamTheBam Jan 09, 2009, 05:47pm EST Reply - Quote - Report Abuse
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Edited: Jan 09, 2009, 06:44pm EST

 
>> Re: Re: More phenomenal AMD marketing?
That's the way AMD have always been. Everyone knows that.
But no it's not fraud. It's called competition. And every company from car companies
to whatever all do it. Where you been Yup?!

....I'm back, but only as a part-timer... :)
Gerritt Jan 09, 2009, 08:31pm EST Reply - Quote - Report Abuse
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>> Re: Re: More phenomenal AMD marketing?
jj jj,
There is not a huge cost difference.
On Newegg the AMD is $235 and the Intel is $295. A $60 difference yes, but this is not a huge difference.

Additionally the Intel has 8MB of L3 cache, whereas the AMD has 6MB of L3 cache.
The Intels are rated at 130W and the AMD at 125W, so you can see a small savings in power requirements as well as the $60 delta between the two offerings.
AMD will need to widen the cost/price delta even more if they want to get any market penatration....lets say a sub $200 pricing point.

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jj jj Jan 09, 2009, 09:02pm EST Reply - Quote - Report Abuse
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>> Re: Re: More phenomenal AMD marketing?
Oh dear. How you have missed the point. Fine details like cache are irrelevant (though,it;s worth noting the Phenom has twice the L2 per core...). The point is that the headline numbers - core count and clockspeed - look good for AMD when you compare like for like.

Moreover, you also chose to ignore the fact that you need a motherboard to run these chips - currently, the cheapest Core i7 motherboard is approximately three to four times pricier than the cheapest Phenom II compatible board. Then there's the DDR3 memory you need for the Core i7.

Needless to say, you'll see Phenom II 920 2.8GHz quad-core boxes in shops at prices much, much lower than the Core i7 920 2.6GHz quad-core boxes sitting next to them. No doubt this alone will be enough to score some sales from your average clueless buyer - who represents the vast majority of consumers.

Gerritt Jan 09, 2009, 09:17pm EST Reply - Quote - Report Abuse
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>> Re: Re: More phenomenal AMD marketing?
jj jj,

Some sales yes; but to penatrate the enthusist market, no, not unless you already have a AM2+ MB.
My present system is AMD centric (see my profile), but I'm 98% sure that my next upgrade will be a i7, as in order to continue in the AMD track, I'd have to replace MB, CPU and DRAM, and am willing to pay a moderate premium to switch platforms to the one that offers the best ongoing performance over the next 3-4 years.

Right now the performance deltas between AMD and Intel at equivelent clock speeds are so high, that I could not justify going cheap and staying with AMD.
Why pay 20% less for a AMD platform and give up a 30-50% increase in computational power?
Thats my point.

Ad Astra Per Aspera
(A rough road leads to the Stars)
We all know what we know, and everyone else knows we are wrong.
System Specifications in BIO
Hugh Scriven Jan 09, 2009, 10:38pm EST Reply - Quote - Report Abuse
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>> Re: Re: More phenomenal AMD marketing?
For practical and economic reasons, I've always been greatly impressed by the AMD processors.

Since I'm definitely not a 'high end' user who demands the highest speed I've often wondered:

For those who are constantly seeking the highest possible operating speeds, where do you actually see it? What kinds of applications manifest any tangible differences with the high-end most costly processors?

A_Pickle Jan 09, 2009, 11:04pm EST Reply - Quote - Report Abuse
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>> Re: Re: More phenomenal AMD marketing?
I feel that it's worth mentioning that, while I'm sure it's no coincidence that the Phenom II X4's were named so similarly to their Core i7 counterparts from the blue team, the COST of the Phenom II X4's is what exonerates them from this idea of "fraud." They cost just below the Core 2 Quad Q9300 and Q9400, and... they perform similarly to both of those chips in a smattering of benchmarks.

Meats_Of_Evil Jan 10, 2009, 03:15am EST Reply - Quote - Report Abuse
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>> Re: Re: More phenomenal AMD marketing?
Hugh Scriven said:
For practical and economic reasons, I've always been greatly impressed by the AMD processors.

Since I'm definitely not a 'high end' user who demands the highest speed I've often wondered:

For those who are constantly seeking the highest possible operating speeds, where do you actually see it? What kinds of applications manifest any tangible differences with the high-end most costly processors?


I was very careful when I bought my Quad when they did the whole price drop thing 2 years ago in july and I kept wondering the same thing. The best thing of all is that I'm not running out of cpu power and am only limited by the hard drive, which allows me to run multiple programs and the cpu won't suffer a bit. But the best feature for me is the full thread utilization when I encode which I do a ton. That's about the best thing for me. I can encode a full dvd with Nero recode in 15minutes where as it would take 1:30 to 2 hours when I had the single core processor, so that's a tremendous jump for me and I'm happy with my decision.

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Everything I write is Sarcasm.
dark41 Jan 10, 2009, 03:28am EST Reply - Quote - Report Abuse
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>> Re: Re: More phenomenal AMD marketing?
You say potato, I say potato.

The fact that the name is the same as a faster chip, and the price and performance is the same as slower chips, seems more to imply fraud to me.

They're hoping you don't notice that the AMD 920 CPU is as slow as the similarly priced Intel CPU of a different name, and that you think you're getting a deal for the same performance as the same named i7. Lately AMD has relied upon selling slightly faster chips for less money in the markets they can compete in. If you think that's what you're getting again with their 920, you're in for a major disappointment.

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pullockaran sunil Jan 10, 2009, 11:51am EST Reply - Quote - Report Abuse
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>> Re: Re: More phenomenal AMD marketing?
Forgive me my ignorance but is it not better to spend a bit less on the processor and spend the saved cash on a super high end graphic cards in sli or crossfire configuration. I mean one of those new cards that do part of the computation of the main processor or are they not out as yet. I know that the i7 is better than the Phenom 2 by a long margin but would not the graphics cards make up for it. Would not an AMD rig equal or beat the latest Intel when set up in this configuration?

dark41 Jan 10, 2009, 03:26pm EST Reply - Quote - Report Abuse
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>> Re: Re: More phenomenal AMD marketing?
Depends upon what you want to do with it. If you're big into programs that use the CPU (CAD, editing, graphic design, file conversion, etc.), the i7 can save you a lot of time. Where time is money, it pays for itself rather quickly and the graphics card makes less difference. :)

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Plug & Play Jan 10, 2009, 03:36pm EST Reply - Quote - Report Abuse
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Edited: Jan 10, 2009, 03:39pm EST

 
>> Re: Re: More phenomenal AMD marketing?
Look it quite simple no matter what way you look at it. For peeps who are hardware geeks (like myself) they already know what they are after when online or walking into the store.....we constantly read up online or in magazine about the latest and greatest before its even out!

So it dont matter what price AMD stuff is they are not going to buy it (Geeks) coz they know it does not match Intels line up. And for the record an AMD high end Tri core's are slower then the high end non extreme C2D the E8xxx series with a modest overclock and is the same price give or take. So you can build a like for like system for same money....

So the average joe can buy whatever he wants....because if they sell crap and it does not do what he wants he will be BACK!!!!!

BTW,

Noboady in this cut throat industry plays by the rules so....its so dog eat dog out there.

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Plug & Play Jan 10, 2009, 04:30pm EST Reply - Quote - Report Abuse
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>> Re: Re: More phenomenal AMD marketing?

And no point in having a low end CPU that will bottleneck a UBER GPU!!!!

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Hugh Scriven Jan 11, 2009, 04:24am EST Reply - Quote - Report Abuse
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>> Re: Re: More phenomenal AMD marketing?
So really, the very highest speed performance is more of a 'bragging rights' thingy?

Is there any valid reason then that 'normal' users should get anything but AMD?


dark41 Jan 11, 2009, 08:13am EST Reply - Quote - Report Abuse
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>> Re: Re: More phenomenal AMD marketing?
Hugh Scriven said:
So really, the very highest speed performance is more of a 'bragging rights' thingy?

Is there any valid reason then that 'normal' users should get anything but AMD?



You're totally missing the point. There is no reason that 'normal' users should get anything but Intel right now. I don't know many 'average' users who wouldn't benefit from converting movies to DVDs with an i7 920. That's just 1 example. And someone who only plays games is not by any means an 'average' user.

The highest speed for now is a 965 i7, and that's very pricey. No bang for the buck for the average user compared to the 940 and 920 i7. That's more about bragging rights and for those with unlimited budgets.

But the current bottom end i7 is the 920, which is quite a bit faster than AMD's fastest Phenom II which costs more (The Phenom II X4 940 Black Edition).

If you really can't justify spending the additional $60 for the i7 920 over the Phenom II 920, you probably shouldn't be buying a new computer now because you can't justify the price of any of your other components either. :)

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Julian Innerhofer Jan 11, 2009, 11:37am EST Reply - Quote - Report Abuse
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>> Re: Re: More phenomenal AMD marketing?
The average user also doesn't convert movies to DVDs, he does things like web browsing and office applications.

In my country (Austria), most average users buy laptops or cheap systems for about 400 - 600, which would be about 550$ - 850$, but systems are generally a little more expensive in Europa then in the USA, for this price you get something like Athlon X2 5000+, 2GB RAM, 320GB HDD. So this is rather, what an "average user" buys, when he doesn't buy a laptop.

Plug & Play Jan 11, 2009, 01:42pm EST Reply - Quote - Report Abuse
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>> Re: Re: More phenomenal AMD marketing?

Guys

No point in comparing an AMD setup with i7 its just not comparing apples to apples especially when AMD is struggling to beat the "OLD" C2D line up.

And for all you AMD clowns saying i7 is soooo expsenive its not!!!! Only the mobos are mainly because of the new DDR3 RAM and the socket is totally new 1366 pins instead of 775 pins. And TBH I remember paying mad money for the latest COMMANDO Asus mobo when it came out....the boards are only a few pound dearer then that again and the new tech price applies aswell.

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dark41 Jan 11, 2009, 03:17pm EST Reply - Quote - Report Abuse
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>> Re: Re: More phenomenal AMD marketing?
Julian Innerhofer said:
The average user also doesn't convert movies to DVDs, he does things like web browsing and office applications.

In my country (Austria), most average users buy laptops or cheap systems for about 400 - 600, which would be about 550$ - 850$, but systems are generally a little more expensive in Europa then in the USA, for this price you get something like Athlon X2 5000+, 2GB RAM, 320GB HDD. So this is rather, what an "average user" buys, when he doesn't buy a laptop.


Where does your information come from? Because if that's accurate Austria would be completely out of touch with the rest of the world from my experience. Not to mention that every 1 of the components you listed is overkill for surfing the internet and running office programs only. An old Celeron and 512mb SDRAM would accomplish the same thing just as quickly, and we give those away. You must do a LOT of office work to justify a 320GB HDD.

I sell systems in Australia and almost every 1 of our customers converts movies to DVDs, while only about half ask for some type of Office Suite. TV/Video capture devices are standard on our system for a reason. 500GB HDDs are the norm, and it's not unusual for a customer to ask for something bigger. Most people have video cameras that they use to capture memories and convert to DVD for later viewing and distributing to family and friends. In fact I have several older customers who do nothing but email and convert their home videos to DVD for their family and friends.

My kids in the USA are constantly talking to me about file conversion, and what their friends use for it. Even my 70 year old mother in the USA can't live without her DVD Shrink and Nero. She rarely surfs the internet (can't convince her to use Google for questions).

Absolutely no one has ever bought a system from us just to surf the internet and do office work at home. Some businesses do, but they are a minority.

I hope for Austrians' sakes your information is a little outdated. :)

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dark41 Jan 11, 2009, 03:31pm EST Reply - Quote - Report Abuse
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>> Re: Re: More phenomenal AMD marketing?
Plug & Play said:

Guys

No point in comparing an AMD setup with i7 its just not comparing apples to apples especially when AMD is struggling to beat the "OLD" C2D line up.

And for all you AMD clowns saying i7 is soooo expsenive its not!!!! Only the mobos are mainly because of the new DDR3 RAM and the socket is totally new 1366 pins instead of 775 pins. And TBH I remember paying mad money for the latest COMMANDO Asus mobo when it came out....the boards are only a few pound dearer then that again and the new tech price applies aswell.


DDR3 and i7 board prices are coming down quickly now too. Friday's price list includes a couple of X58 boards for under $200AUD. DDR3 3x1GB 1333 is under $100AUD. The good stuff is still pretty pricey, but it's just a matter of time (probably a few months) before it's the same as the C2Q components are now. :)

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Plug & Play Jan 11, 2009, 05:16pm EST Reply - Quote - Report Abuse
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>> Re: Re: More phenomenal AMD marketing?
dark41 said:
Plug & Play said:

Guys

No point in comparing an AMD setup with i7 its just not comparing apples to apples especially when AMD is struggling to beat the "OLD" C2D line up.

And for all you AMD clowns saying i7 is soooo expsenive its not!!!! Only the mobos are mainly because of the new DDR3 RAM and the socket is totally new 1366 pins instead of 775 pins. And TBH I remember paying mad money for the latest COMMANDO Asus mobo when it came out....the boards are only a few pound dearer then that again and the new tech price applies aswell.


DDR3 and i7 board prices are coming down quickly now too. Friday's price list includes a couple of X58 boards for under $200AUD. DDR3 3x1GB 1333 is under $100AUD. The good stuff is still pretty pricey, but it's just a matter of time (probably a few months) before it's the same as the C2Q components are now. :)


Exactly mate!!!!

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