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  Obama confirms plan for US troop withdrawal from Iraq! 
 
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Bungle Aug 05, 2010, 01:31pm EDT Reply - Quote - Report Abuse
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>> Re: Obama confirms plan for US troop withdrawal from Iraq!
Dave said:
It is my belief that humanity would be better off without religion. I'm fed up of being told that I should believe in an entity which has no evidence to back it up or I'll go to hell. Or be blown up on the tube.


I'm not a particularly religious person if asked I generally tell people I'm agnostic. But I do think there is an evoloutionary reason for religion. It binds cultures together and in the case of christianity (i haven't had too much exposure to most of the other major religions) can temper peoples otherwise highly anti-social behavior by having them believe that there are consequences for those actions (hell). The otherwise non violent religions Christianity, Buddihism, etc.. I kind of think of like the benign bacteria in our digestive systems, helping with some things but can be highly dangerous under the wrong set of circumstances. Religions like Islam I think of more as a flesh eating plague that eats away at everything most of us hold near and dear.

As much damage as large numbers of religious people can do if led to believe the wrong things I kind of wonder if we would actually be worse without religion there to supress the self serving instincts that all of us have deep down.

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Dave Aug 05, 2010, 01:34pm EDT Reply - Quote - Report Abuse
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>> Re: Obama confirms plan for US troop withdrawal from Iraq!
I have no religion, yet I'm able to function with my own set of morals. I don't see why some people need some sort of otherworldly deterrent to prevent them from committing crimes and such. I have no problem with people who are religious, as long as it doesn't get shoved in my face.

Christianity is not a non-violent religion.

Bungle Aug 05, 2010, 01:45pm EDT Reply - Quote - Report Abuse
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>> Re: Obama confirms plan for US troop withdrawal from Iraq!
Every religion has had its moments, and maybe things are different on the other side of the Atlantic but in the US Christianity is about as peaceful as they come.

You have to remember that everyone does not think the same and while some of us are capible of being moral without religion others may not be. Like you I really dont want it shoved in my face. But I have seen people that were borderline lunatics find religion and turn themselves around almost instantly.

Religion is like hurricanes... people in the south east US complain about them because they destroy so much then they get a season with relatively few of them and end up with droughts... you probably don't realize the good it does because you take it for granted. Western Culture is what it is because of the influence of christianity (both the good and the bad), you're fooling yourself if you think otherwise.

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Dave Aug 05, 2010, 01:48pm EDT Reply - Quote - Report Abuse
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>> Re: Obama confirms plan for US troop withdrawal from Iraq!
Fair to say. I just wish it was something else that drove the majority of humanity.

Nathan Daniels Aug 05, 2010, 01:53pm EDT Reply - Quote - Report Abuse
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>> Re: Obama confirms plan for US troop withdrawal from Iraq!
Dave said:
Hmm, sounds great until we remember the Crusades!


True. That's why I put the "within the last 50 years" part in there.

It is my belief that humanity would be better off without religion. I'm fed up of being told that I should believe in an entity which has no evidence to back it up or I'll go to hell. Or be blown up on the tube.


I don't know about over there, but over here no one is telling you what to believe in. Sure there are those Christians that will try to convince you to change your beliefs (annoying Jehovah witnesses) but they are in no way forcing it upon you. There is also a large number of Atheists who would love very much to force you to stop believing in your religion. It is my belief that the world humanity would be better off if everyone were religious. Without religion, there would be no fear of punishment for doing something wrong. I know this doesn't stop most people now days but there are plenty of god-fearing individuals that may be more inclined to violence if they didn't think they would burn in Hell for it. Also, almost every single charity and shelter here is Christian-based. The Humane Society, the Salvation Army, St. Jude Children's Hospital, American Red Cross, and March of Dimes are just a few. If religion wasn't around, these organizations wouldn't exist.

Oh yeah, and for you Nathan...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Troubles

Forgot about that?


Honestly, I did not forget about that. That is because I have never heard about it. (Typical, close-minded, arrogant American I guess) Thank you for educating me. But reading the article tells me that they fighting was between different factions of Christians and was also heavily influenced by politics. While your point remains valid and you found an example of Christian extremism as I challenged, I was thinking more along the lines of Christian terrorism against another religion for no reason other than the fact that they are another religion.

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-Patton
Nathan Daniels Aug 05, 2010, 01:59pm EDT Reply - Quote - Report Abuse
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>> Re: Obama confirms plan for US troop withdrawal from Iraq!
MrBungle, you type too fast. You made and posted all my points before I could finish typing them!

And I too consider myself agnostic. I am very scientific and I believe in evolution and relativity and such. But there are so many unanswered questions. How can you get humans from bacteria in just a few hundred million years given how slowly evolution takes place. And how was the universe created? What started the big bang? And what of the Heisenberg uncertainty principle that seems to put a bit of randomness in everything. Maybe there isn't a god controlling us and watching over us. But there may certainly be someone or something behind the controls of the universe.

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"The more we sweat in peace, the less we bleed in war."
-Patton
Bungle Aug 05, 2010, 02:06pm EDT Reply - Quote - Report Abuse
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>> Re: Obama confirms plan for US troop withdrawal from Iraq!
Nathan Daniels said:
There is also a large number of Atheists who would love very much to force you to stop believing in your religion.


Militant in your face Atheists are just as annoying as people on the other end of the spectrum.

It is my belief that the world humanity would be better off if everyone were religious.


Nah, I don't know about that either. Opposing view points keep you thinking and if you fall into the trap of believing something just because its the same dogma that everyone around you believes you'll never know what the truth is because you won't be actively trying to search it out. Know what you believe, know why you believe it, and if you cant defend your position perhaps its time to reconsider it.

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A_Pickle Aug 05, 2010, 11:05pm EDT Reply - Quote - Report Abuse
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>> Re: Obama confirms plan for US troop withdrawal from Iraq!
Awesome!

I think it's about damn time we got out of a country we had no business being in! Maybe we can actually make our own country better, instead of letting conservatives completely f**k it up again. Oh, heh, wait, never mind -- that's a ridiculous hope.

Ugh.

As for religion and politics... I'll be honest: I'm with Dave here. No religion in the world would be thes**t. Would there be problems? Yeah, but they'd get solved a f**k of a lot quicker without a**holes hitting the gas on oil extraction because who gives a f**k about the Earth? The Rapture is in, like, two years anyways, right? FIVE at the MOST. Absolute most.

Yeah. Religion is stupid.

Bungle Aug 06, 2010, 10:56am EDT Reply - Quote - Report Abuse
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>> Re: Obama confirms plan for US troop withdrawal from Iraq!
A_Pickle said:
Awesome!Maybe we can actually make our own country better, instead of letting Liberal Republicans completely f**k it up again. Oh, heh, wait, never mind -- that's a ridiculous hope.


There fixed that for you.

Real, actual, conservatives, have not been in control of the government in any of our life times. The last round of republicans to get into power were conservative on social issues but very liberal spenders... not quite to the degree that the authoritarian statist democrats in office now are but still very bad.


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bossa ritchie Aug 06, 2010, 12:16pm EDT Reply - Quote - Report Abuse
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Edited: Aug 06, 2010, 12:18pm EDT

 
>> Re: Obama confirms plan for US troop withdrawal from Iraq!
Damn I moved this onto a religious thing.

When I made my statement about the war on Oil etc etc, I was expecting a few of you yanks to give me some hits back on the UK's not so great past.

If we take the UK and USA we like to think of ourselves are the defenders of the World so to speak.

This aint a punch at the US army but at 1 point it was said the worse soldier to get caught by was a US soldier(American soldiers have said this also), a few pics from the Iraq war showed that not all the rules of war were followed so to speak, the UK well the record there is no better, it's widely accepted that the Nazi got the whole concentration camp idea from Britain from watching the UK army during the Africa days, and that's only 2 comments the list can go on a fair bit.

And as pointed out the troubles in Ireland are also linked to christianity but not caused by, as for christianity turning a blind eye this is not true, after the War many of the top Nazis escaped to Argentina with help from the Catholic Church, this is not turning a blind eye this is getting into bed with the Nazi's.

We have the current BP oil spill in the US which is causing a big uproar in the US at present, yet if you go to Nigeria an ExxonMobil a USA company causing 1 of these every year, think about that oil spill and just think what it would be like if that happened every year, only difference with the Oil Spills in Nigeria is people in Nigeria have a lower life expectancy due to not having clean water, BTW it is polluted by the Oil.

Same with the whole Bin Laden thing, we keep hearing War on Terror, well Bin Laden was funded by the US also same as the Taliban was funded by the US, not sure if the UK funded the Taliban but I do know British Soldiers were used to train them.

My main Point is we like to think we are doing the right thing and that we have high morals, but in reality we don't.

You can look abroad to other places and look down on them but in reality we are no better.

This is what annoys me the most our goverments presents us as Angels yet we have the Horns and tail instead.

A_Pickle Aug 06, 2010, 12:21pm EDT Reply - Quote - Report Abuse
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Edited: Aug 06, 2010, 12:21pm EDT

 
>> Re: Obama confirms plan for US troop withdrawal from Iraq!
bossa ritchie
My main Point is we like to think we are doing the right thing and that we have high morals, but in reality we don't.


Exactly. Once people realize that flying an American flag in your yard doesn't make you automatically a good person on "the good guys team," then we'll be in a much better place -- because hopefully this hypothetical society of critically-thinking citizens wouldn't let their government run amok in their names.

Unfortunately, we've allowed our government AND our corporations to run amok, globally, in our name.

Bungle Aug 06, 2010, 12:35pm EDT Reply - Quote - Report Abuse
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>> Re: Obama confirms plan for US troop withdrawal from Iraq!
On the topic of governments and large organizations commiting various atrocities and not taking responsiblitiy for them I think that these are really just symptoms of a greater problem... I really think that it all stems from the breakdown of the family and an evolution in our culture that has moved away from earning an honest living and more toward an entitlement based get everything you can from everyone else right now and damn pride and honor while were at it attitude. When enough people of that mentality get into postions of power we start to see things like this carried out on a grand scale.

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Dave Aug 06, 2010, 01:27pm EDT Reply - Quote - Report Abuse
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>> Re: Obama confirms plan for US troop withdrawal from Iraq!
Better a country to be run by the Right rather than the pansy liberal Left.

Wooo, religious and political discussion!

Michael C Aug 06, 2010, 01:38pm EDT Reply - Quote - Report Abuse
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Edited: Aug 06, 2010, 01:38pm EDT

 
>> Re: Obama confirms plan for US troop withdrawal from Iraq!
Hey eh...what's yous all talking aboots over there?

I can't say much for Canada, because there really isn't that much to say.

Beavis Khan Aug 06, 2010, 01:40pm EDT Reply - Quote - Report Abuse
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Edited: Aug 06, 2010, 01:56pm EDT

 
>> Re: Obama confirms plan for US troop withdrawal from Iraq!
MrBungle said:
The last round of republicans to get into power were conservative on social issues but very liberal spenders


Since when is making laws to restrict freedoms based on (largely) religious morals considered conservatism? If by conservative you mean resistant to change, then I guess I can buy that, but personally I consider fewer laws and greater freedoms (yes, even for teh gheys) to be characteristics of actual conservatism - none of which modern Republicans care about in any sort of principled manner.

Edit: I should be clear; I don't mean to say that the Democrats have a clue on anything from Iraq to religion or beyond. In fact, they're so f**king stupid that they're in danger of making the Republicans look like they know what they're doing, which here in 2010 is pretty f**king scary. Ugh.

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Bungle Aug 06, 2010, 02:24pm EDT Reply - Quote - Report Abuse
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Edited: Aug 06, 2010, 02:39pm EDT

 
>> Re: Obama confirms plan for US troop withdrawal from Iraq!

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Nathan Daniels Aug 06, 2010, 07:50pm EDT Reply - Quote - Report Abuse
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Edited: Aug 06, 2010, 07:51pm EDT

 
>> Re: Obama confirms plan for US troop withdrawal from Iraq!
MrB, you're confusing me. I believe the whole thing is more black-and-white than you make it seem.

To me, a conservative is someone who wants to conserve the way this country used to be, before the "Progressive Era." Conservatives want as small of a government as possible with a completely free capitalist market and very few taxes. That formula has worked for nearly 250 years and it made us once the greatest and wealthiest country on Earth.

The liberals, on the other hand, want to turn us into country with a massive socialist government, outrageous market regulations, and huge and unfair taxes. Basically, they want to turn us into (and I say this without intention of insulting anyone) just another European country.

Conservatives want this country to follow the Constitution word-for-word, as was intended by the founders. (Recently, the 14th Amendment has become an exception to that devotion, which I don't think is right. It is part of the constitution whether we like it or not.) Liberals on the other hand see the constitution as an obstacle. They try to pretend the 2nd Amendment doesn't exist, or that the Commerce Clause allows them to force us to buy something we don't want to.

While there may be some complex map of how the parties changed names and positions over the years, the two major groups these days are complete opposites.

religiously motivated near authoritarianism on social issues like abortion, however they do allow a little more freedom in the economic sense.


First of all, people who are against abortion see it as murder. And that isn't necessarily religiously motivated. Unless you consider making murder illegal an "authoritarian" policy, then banning abortion is not authoritarian.

Second of all, "little more freedom"? What you are describing is a classic Country Club Republican, also known as a RINO (Republican In Name Only), RINO's are what we had in congress and white house the last time. RINO's are essentially liberals who call themselves republicans but they are not conservatives in any sense. Real conservatives want people to have complete freedom economically and socially.

Finally, your definition of a libertarian is off. A libertarian fits under the definition of a conservative but they take it to the extreme. A libertarian is as close to an anarchist as you can get without actually being one. Libertarians want almost no government at all and want 100% freedom for everyone. The idea is flawed in my opinion but it is better than authoritarian ideas.

Maybe we can actually make our own country better, instead of letting conservatives completely f**k it up again. Oh, heh, wait, never mind -- that's a ridiculous hope.


I don't get it. Why don't you guys just leave. There are dozens of countries across the Atlantic that fit your idea of a perfect world but instead you insist on changing this once great nation to match your liberal agenda. You have to understand the conservatives are not f**king anything up. It's you guys that are bringing the change. We just want to keep things the way they once were. I would love love love for one side to secede and start its own country but that just can't happen these days. The next best choice is for one of us to just leave and go to another country. And since there are NO conservative countries left on this planet (Bulgaria maybe) and countless liberal countries remaining, the choice of who to leave seems obvious.

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-Patton
Bungle Aug 06, 2010, 08:05pm EDT Reply - Quote - Report Abuse
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>> Re: Obama confirms plan for US troop withdrawal from Iraq!
The main label that I take issue with is "liberal" the root word of which is liberty and none of what todays so called liberals stand for could be called liberty. They are authoritarian statists through and through.

I was merely trying to put the terms in historical context because I believe that the mainstream media has conditioned most people to call liberals and conservatives are completely inaccurate.


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bossa ritchie Aug 07, 2010, 07:17pm EDT Reply - Quote - Report Abuse
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Edited: Aug 07, 2010, 07:21pm EDT

 
>> Re: Obama confirms plan for US troop withdrawal from Iraq!
Just read Nathans earlier post

There is also a large number of Atheists who would love very much to force you to stop believing in your religion


Well the thing with Athesists is they look at the world logicaly and not on what has been stamped into someones brain, I have no problem with religous folks, infact it is nice they have something to believe in, bit like he believes in God I have a Fish Tank.

It is my belief that the world humanity would be better off if everyone were religious. Without religion, there would be no fear of punishment for doing something wrong. I know this doesn't stop most people now days but there are plenty of god-fearing individuals that may be more inclined to violence if they didn't think they would burn in Hell for it.


Well that is just stupid. Take the Middle Ages in Europe mostly where everyone feared God and the Church, it didn't stop Crime, it didn't stop war it didn't stop nations or tribes killing others including Woman and Children.

Also take 9/11 the people who did that were religous.

this doesn't stop most people now days


Sorry to say mate it has never stopped anyone, also in the middle ages if you killed, raped or any crime really you would go to the church and paying in Gold would make it all better, under the eyes of God.

Religion doesn't stop bad things it only lets you twist things around to make you think they are correct, like the Crusades where the church fooled people into thinking God wanted them to kill.

Religion has killed more and caused suffering more than anything else in the World to date.

A_Pickle Aug 08, 2010, 11:26pm EDT Reply - Quote - Report Abuse
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Edited: Aug 08, 2010, 11:28pm EDT

 
>> Re: Obama confirms plan for US troop withdrawal from Iraq!
Nathan Daniels
To me, a conservative is someone who wants to conserve the way this country used to be, before the "Progressive Era."


Define the "Progressive Era."

Nathan Daniels
Conservatives want as small of a government as possible with a completely free capitalist market and very few taxes.


Well, I'm awfully sorry to burst your bubble, but the mainstream representatives of the "Conservative" political ideology would be the Republican Party. That party has done the precise opposite of create "as small a government as possible." It was they, not the Obama administration, that passed the USA PATRIOT Act (this grants the government the power to use sneak-and-peek warrants and roving wiretaps) the Military Commissions Act (basically denies citizens the right to habeus corpus), and amended the Foreign Intelligence Surveillance act in closed, secret (untelevised) joint sessions of Congress. So much for the ruse that Republicans want to defend your civil liberties -- they enabled the reviled Obama-Pelosi-Reid socialists to spy on you and detain you without due process. Conservative talking about civil rights violation

They expanded the role of government in healthcare when they passed the Medicare Prescription Drug, Improvement, and Modernization Act of 2003. Unlike ObamaCare (which the Republicans bitch about due to it's "expense"), MMA 2003 was an unfunded healthcare program with a monumentally stupid clause that disallows the federal government from negotiating prices of drugs with drug companies(?!?). Please keep this in mind when you listen to a Republican (excepting the principled and consistent Representative Ron Paul) bitch about how "government can't do anything right."

The total cost of this bill to U.S. taxpayers through 2015 will be $549 billion. The cost of this bill from 2009 to 2019 will be some $700 billion. That is NOT fiscally responsible.

Nathan Daniels
That formula has worked for nearly 250 years and it made us once the greatest and wealthiest country on Earth.


Except from the government's inception (1789), when the Founders wrote in that darned Constitution that "The Congress shall have Power To lay and collect Taxes, Duties, Imposts and Excises, to pay the Debts and provide for the common Defence and general Welfare of the United States; but all Duties, Imposts and Excises shall be uniform throughout the United States" (Article I, Section 8). Oh, and then again in 1913, when Congress gave the federal government the power to tax incomes.

I might add, you seem to suffer from the typical conservative syndrome that yearns for a "simpler time, like back in the old days." Yes, back when people could own slaves, women couldn't vote, justice was blind to the plight of minorities - things have since changed, for the better, in part due to government.

Nathan Daniels
The liberals, on the other hand, want to turn us into country with a massive socialist government, outrageous market regulations, and huge and unfair taxes. Basically, they want to turn us into (and I say this without intention of insulting anyone) just another European country.


It's awfully convenient for you, a conservative, to speak for "the liberals." I'm sure the negative picture you paint of them has nothing to do with your obvious ideological bias.

I wouldn't identify as a "liberal" per se, but I don't identify as a "conservative" either. There are some things I disagree with "the liberals" on, and a HELLUVA lot of things that I disagree with "the conservatives" on.

I would like for everyone in the country to have a minimum standard of living. That minimum standard would be a first-world shelter (not necessarily a house, but a secure, safely-built, clean living arrangement), access to clean water and food, access to sanitation systems, transportation, electrical service, and internet service. I believe we absolutely need to develop clean, renewable energy sources and pair those with a smart, efficient energy grid and the "smart home." We have handheld computers that could intelligently manage every appliance in your home -- we could save a lot of power if computers, rather than humans, were relied upon to turn off our appliances that aren't in use, etc.

We also need a renewable product pipeline. We can't keep drilling for oil (a substance that requires millions of years to generate) and pressing it into disposable plastic wrappers for all of our cools**t. We can't keep mining for rare earth minerals for use in our supreme technological creations because they're so rare, eventually supplies will run out and we will be unable to produce further technology. Products need to be much more recyclable, and they should last much, much longer. There's no reason people need to buy a new car every three years, or a computer every year. That's wasteful and we only have one planet and an underfunded space program that has yet to figure out how to extract resources from off-world sources.

My more conservative political ideology begins here: I am deeply concerned about the deficit, and both Republicans and Democrats have equally pertinent arguments concerning it. The Democrats insist that we should cut defense spending -- I wholeheartedly agree. The Republicans insist that we should cut entitlement spending (Medicare, Medicaid, Social Security) -- I wholeheartedly agree. It's not so much that I think we should completely eliminate social programs, it's just that I feel that when we can't afford any more, the spigot of taxpayer money needs to stop.

Right now, we spend about $1 trillion on defense. We maintain a global empire 800 bases outside of the United States, in some ~160 out of 190 total countries of the world. That is abject imperialism, I don't care how you slice it. That p**ses people off, rightly so. You'll note conservative talking heads like Glenn Beck make a BIIIIIIIG deal about "U.S sovereignty," America being a "sovereign nation" and where "citizens control it's destiny." This is true, and I agree wholeheartedly with that sentiment -- but it goes both ways. Rather, it goes all 190 ways. In 2003, we invaded the sovereign nation of Iraq. To date, studies place the civilian death toll at anywhere between 100,000 to 1,300,000 -- and it's probably on the higher side because five million of Iraq's children are orphans. How 5,000,000 children get to be orphans with a civilian death toll of 100,000 leaves much to question.

You don't think that'll p**s people off?

Let's go with the low estimate of civilian casualties in Iraq - 100,000 people. Every one of them had a mother and father, family, friends who were affected by that experience -- their death. They're human beings. They're not all that different from us. When someone dies, they'll never see that person again -- they know that and you know that. The difference is, a U.S. voter never has to live with that -- whereas the Iraqi who just lost her son, his daughter, her friend... well, they do. When one loses their son/daughter/friend due to the ruthless actions of a powerful enemy against whom you could not possibly fight back, that's when the anger builds. That's when they pick up an AK-47 and have no moral qualm in killing some U.S. voter's son/daughter/friend. Why should they? We've spent the past seven years killing far more Middle Eastern civilians than terrorists have killed American civilians.

Our policy and funding of "national defense" makes us less safe, and puts our hard earned, taxpayer dollars to collossal waste. I don't get anything from the United States owning hundreds of F-22's. My offspring don't benefit from the United States owning hundreds of F-22's. I would close every base outside of the United States and try hard, VERY hard, to get the entire military into a $1-200 billion budget.

We also spend about $1 trillion on the three big social programs, Medicare, Medicaid, and Social Security. I'm not necessarily opposed to the idea behind these social programs, but I can't say that I see sustainability in them. I favor a public healthcare option, but I'm not so sure about Social Security and such.

Nathan Daniels
Conservatives want this country to follow the Constitution word-for-word, as was intended by the founders.


And precisely who gets to define what the Constitution means, word-for-word? Conservatives? Methinks you're just angry, because the system that the Founders established worked. Or rather, it worked to bring you the government we have today.

So I'm gonna say something that'll probably ruffle your old-timey feathers: With every passing year, the U.S. Constitution is increasingly irrelevant and even harmful to our society. It was written 221 years ago in an era without automobiles and instant communications and space travel. I'm sorry, it's time for a refresh.

Nathan Daniels
Liberals on the other hand see the constitution as an obstacle.


Your rhetoric is so full of conservative talking points, it's hilarious. Please, continue speaking for effectively an entire half of the country.

Nathan Daniels
They try to pretend the 2nd Amendment doesn't exist...


No, they don't. They just aren't comfortable with what it allows, and so they'd like to see it re-interpreted in such a fashion that not everyone can have a gun. Of course, that's a pretty old stereotype of liberals -- can you name a single gun-control bill in the Democrat-controlled Congress right now?

Nathan Daniels
...or that the Commerce Clause allows them to force us to buy something we don't want to.


Turns out that conservatives are guilty of using the Commerce Clause to force their morality on the rest of the country. But you don't mind that, now do you?

Nathan Daniels
First of all, people who are against abortion see it as murder.


Which is precisely why I, as an atheist, don't give Christians much flak for their position on abortion. I disagree with that position, but I can completely understand how someone believing in "life at conception" sees abortion as murder.

What I won't respect, however, is the Christian position on drug use. Or gay marriage. Respectfully, go f**king live your own life. If I marry a man, it doesn't "destroy marriage" nor does it affect you in any quantifiable manner, and the same goes for drug use and prostitution. Yeah, I get that the Bible says it's bad -- but 15% of America (and growing) agrees that the Bible is no more significant or important a book than Harry Potter and the Deathly Hallows (which was far more entertaining, IMO).

Do you find gay/lesbian/bisexual/transsexual activity to be immoral? Fine. Don't be a gay/lesbian/bisexual/transsexual. You have authority over the conduct and actions of absolutely one person: Yourself. So, when I see Christian political action committees like the National Organization for Marriage, I want to punch babies. That is your religion, your people, trying to make the government force me to adhere to your own broken moral code. Nothing infuriates me more, f**king nothing.

Nathan Daniels
I don't get it. Why don't you guys just leave.


Why don't you guys come up with good counter-arguments?

Nathan Daniels
There are dozens of countries across the Atlantic that fit your idea of a perfect world but instead you insist on changing this once great nation to match your liberal agenda.


As I've elucidated above, I'm not for a "liberal agenda." I'm for an intelligent one, and that's something the Republicans haven't offered for like, 50 years, when the religious zealots co-opted a once eloquent party of statesmen. Now, it's the party of hypocrites (excepting Ron Paul -- he isn't NEARLY the hypocrite that very nearly every other Republican is).

Nathan Daniels
You have to understand the conservatives are not f**king anything up.


No, definitely, the big-ass recession we had didn't happen on Bush's watch. And the two wars that are bankrupting our country, that definitely didn't happen on Bush's watch either. Oh, and the tax cuts that castrated government revenues and HEAVILY contributed to the current defecit didn't happen on Bush's watch either. The huge civil rights violations that I listed above also didn't happen under Bush's watch.

To suggest that the conservatives didn't f**k up the country is to deny reality. Where the hell were you the past eight years?


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