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  Water Cooling vs. Thermoelectric 
 
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Mike L Jun 18, 2003, 06:16pm EDT Reply - Quote - Report Abuse
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Hi, could anyone compare water cooling and thermoelectric cooling systems? Does anyone know if one could use both at the same time? I know that at least the swiftech water graphics card cooler (mentioned on http://www.xoxide.com ) mentions that it can be used in conjunction with thermoelectric cooling systems.



Who cares if the glass is half empty OR half full, if you're thirsty it'll all be gone anyways...
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ant decto Jun 18, 2003, 07:24pm EDT Reply - Quote - Report Abuse
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>> Re: Water Cooling vs. Thermoelectric
Water Cooling
Can be used to make a quiet system or for moderate overclocking or both. Can be applied to almost anything, I've seen water cooled hard disk carriers, PSU's, graphics card blocks, CPU blocks, Northbridge blocks etc. With a full install it does away with all the small noisy fans to replace them with a bigger fan or two on the radiator which is usually much quieter than the a fan cooled setup. The base system temperature will always be a little higher 3-5C than ambient air temperature at best but can be much higher than ambient with a small basic kit depending on the install.

Peltier Cooling
Uses a peltier device, basically a heat pump which takes in heat on one side and delivers it to the other. Usually only used on the CPU but will pump heat away therefore the CPU temp can be lower than ambient. The main draw back is that you still have to remove the heat, it's a heat pump so you need a good and probably noisy heatsink and fan to shift the heat and it will usually have a custom powersupply unit (usually proveide) to supply the 100w + power needed for the heat pump.

Combination
Uses the heat pump to cool the processor below ambient and water cooling to shift the heat instead of fans. provides a quiet but cool system with CPU temps below ambient achiveable. Still needs the custom PSU to provide power.

Pyrocooling
Basically a refrigeration unit fixed to the CPU. Temperatures below 0C achievable even when overclocked.

The best solution depends on your aims, you can get a powerful CPU now for little money, the cost of advance cooling is significant for small to moderate increases in performance. There's no point finacing advanced cooling unless you have a top end CPU, you'd be better off just buying a better CPU. Water cooling works well for noise reduction (I have a basic TT aquarius) but doesn't provide much extra headroom to overclock.

Ant


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Mike L Jun 18, 2003, 07:39pm EDT Reply - Quote - Report Abuse
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>> Re: Water Cooling vs. Thermoelectric
Wow, thanks a lot for your help! :-)


Who cares if the glass is half empty OR half full, if you're thirsty it'll all be gone anyways...
Mike L Jun 18, 2003, 07:41pm EDT Reply - Quote - Report Abuse
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>> Re: Water Cooling vs. Thermoelectric
Do you know of any specific "pyro cooling" systems out there?


Who cares if the glass is half empty OR half full, if you're thirsty it'll all be gone anyways...
Kittymuncher Jun 18, 2003, 09:26pm EDT Reply - Quote - Report Abuse
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>> Re: Water Cooling vs. Thermoelectric
I think he meant to say "cyro" but not 100% sure.

Mike L Jun 18, 2003, 09:38pm EDT Reply - Quote - Report Abuse
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>> Re: Water Cooling vs. Thermoelectric
Ah, that would make sense. Thanks!


Who cares if the glass is half empty OR half full, if you're thirsty it'll all be gone anyways...
ant decto Jun 24, 2003, 01:36pm EDT Reply - Quote - Report Abuse
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>> Re: Water Cooling vs. Thermoelectric
I do get confussed easily!

I was thinking of this gear which started with a 'p'

http://www.theoverclockingstore.co.uk/browseproducts.php?categoryid=6998

Ant

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Peter Bocsak Jun 25, 2003, 12:41pm EDT Reply - Quote - Report Abuse
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>> Re: Water Cooling vs. Thermoelectric
When you're overclocking, do you HAVE to change to a Water cooling system, or can you keep your basic fan cooling system?

Wizard Prang Jun 25, 2003, 12:55pm EDT Reply - Quote - Report Abuse
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>> Re: Water Cooling vs. Thermoelectric
If the basic fan works, go with it. If not, you have to find a better solution, water or otherwise.

Prang

Who is... oh, never mind :)
Peter Bocsak Jun 25, 2003, 12:59pm EDT Reply - Quote - Report Abuse
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>> Re: Water Cooling vs. Thermoelectric
I have a P3 450MHz, and the BUS are at 133MHz. How far can I overclock it, but wihout having to change my fan. I still want it to be stable.

Harris Walktin Jun 25, 2003, 01:00pm EDT Reply - Quote - Report Abuse
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>> Re: Water Cooling vs. Thermoelectric
Be carefull, if condensation builds up, and your hdd gets too cold, you may run into shattered hdd plates.

- Harris W. -AMD Employee
AMD cannot be held responsible for any damage done to your PC by my advice. My advice is valid.
Peter Bocsak Jun 25, 2003, 01:06pm EDT Reply - Quote - Report Abuse
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>> Re: Water Cooling vs. Thermoelectric
What do you mean "too cold HDD"? what does "condensation builds up" mean (english isn't my motherlanguage)

Mike L Jun 25, 2003, 11:03pm EDT Reply - Quote - Report Abuse
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>> Re: Water Cooling vs. Thermoelectric
Do you think that the following water block by swiftech http://www.xoxide.com/swmcgrcawabl.html would also fit the MOBO chipset? I know that many blocks that fit the graphcis card will also fit the chipset.


Who cares if the glass is half empty OR half full, if you're thirsty it'll all be gone anyways...
Keith D Jul 07, 2003, 08:41am EDT Reply - Quote - Report Abuse
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>> Re: Water Cooling vs. Thermoelectric
Water cooling will not take your overclocking as far as thermoelectric cooling combined with water cooling can.

Trying to cool large thermoelectric devices (also called "Peltiers", after the French dude who invented them) with a heatsink and fan is not going to work as these devices not only move heat off the CPU (or whatever your attempting to cool) but create heat as well, in addition to your CPU or the thing you are wanting to cool.

Air cooling thermoelectric devices is only feasible if they are low wattage ones. Say, under 100 watts.

I have built a dual, 172 watt, peltier rig combined with watercooling. It works pretty well, but yes it was expensive to build, and yes I could have bought the latest, greatest CPU and obtained pretty similar performance, but.. the beauty of the rig is, once built, you can use it with pretty much any CPU and/or motherboard you want.

Which means you can keep changing CPU's in the rig's motherboard as they come down to a reasonable price. Why pay for a bleeding edge XP3200+ when an overclocked XP2500+ Barton with excellent cooling will out perform it?

More details of my rig here..

http://www.e-magic.co.nz/starlet/

If you want to go colder than this, then you will need a Vaporchill, or better still Prometia or LN2 setup. (LN2 is not an everyday solution).

cheers

ant decto Jul 07, 2003, 09:25am EDT Reply - Quote - Report Abuse
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>> Re: Water Cooling vs. Thermoelectric
Keith,

Nice looking site and you've put a lot of work into your rig.

I was looking at your figures and you've settled for 2.25Ghz on the Barton, was this as far as the chip would go or are you being cautious?

I ask because I have an XP2500 currently running at 1.65v 2.20 Ghz (176 x 12.5 - limit of system as no 1/6 divider or ability to lock AGP/PCI bus to 66/33). I'm running a very basic aquarius water cooling system and the CPU temp is ambient + 13C (usually about 35C) under stress. If I crank the voltage up to 1.85v I can run at 2.25 GHz with temps of ambient +19C. Runs stable overnight running burnin's, 3dmark etc.

Have you tried any higher o/c's, I'd have expected 2.4Ghz + with the sheer amount of cooling you have.

Regards

Ant

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Peter Bocsak Jul 07, 2003, 09:33am EDT Reply - Quote - Report Abuse
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>> Re: Water Cooling vs. Thermoelectric
I have PIII 450 MHz, 320RAM, HDD of 80 Go. I'd like to overclockit as much as I can without having to change the cooling system (I kept the basic system of fans). A l'il program is telling me that my CPU is arround 47-53 degres Celcius. Is that too hot? I guesse so! what can I do?

Thanks

Peter

Keith D Jul 07, 2003, 08:30pm EDT Reply - Quote - Report Abuse
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>> Re: Water Cooling vs. Thermoelectric
ant decto - In reply..

I have been up to 11 x 220FSB = 2420MHz with the 2500 Barton so far.
(Have only had the CPU in the rig for a few days so still testing etc).
I am after as high a stable FSB speed as I can get at this stage.
I would prefer a stable 10 x 225FSB = 2250MHz than 11 x 220FSB = 2420MHz. I think, high FSB is the main goal to aim for and then high overall MHz. I could be wrong. Benchmarking with Sisoft Sandra 2003, shows high FSB is great for increasing memory benchmarks but at the expense of CPU and Multimedia scores. At the end of the day it is going to be a compromise of high FSB speed and high overall system MHz.

Sorry, for going a little off topic here.

cheers

Rick Edwards Jul 13, 2003, 08:53pm EDT Reply - Quote - Report Abuse
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>> Re: Water Cooling vs. Thermoelectric
I am a little confused? I am using a Iceburg ! water cooling system,and I mounted the radiator and res outside the case. I attached two 80m fans to the radiator, one to push, and one to pull.

I replaced the standard AMD Cooling fan with this unit, and I am getting about the same temps! 53C idle, and 56C load!

I am using an AMD 2700+, with an Abit NFS motherboard, with Dual Channel ram 512 X 2. I have the system built in an Antec case, with 7 case fans, and use Digital Doc to monitor. I also use Arctic Silver 3 compond for the CPU

Any Ideas??

Thanks
Rick

Keith D Jul 14, 2003, 08:23pm EDT Reply - Quote - Report Abuse
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>> Re: Water Cooling vs. Thermoelectric
Perhaps you need more radiator area?

What pump and tubing sizes are you using also?


Rick Edwards Jul 15, 2003, 09:01pm EDT Reply - Quote - Report Abuse
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>> Re: Water Cooling vs. Thermoelectric
It comes with standard 3/8 inch tubing, the manu recommends to install the res in the case, but I did not want to do that, so I am running about a 1 feet of additional tubing to run the res outside the case.
The pump sits inside the res like the TT water cooler, I do not know what the head output of the pump is though ?

Rick

ant decto Jul 16, 2003, 08:17am EDT Reply - Quote - Report Abuse
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>> Re: Water Cooling vs. Thermoelectric
Rick,

I'm surprised to see you have such high temps with a water cooling kit. As above I have a basic TT Aquarius II water cooling kit.
With a new mobo I'm currently at 217x10 (2170Ghz) synced with HyperX DDR PC3500 Ram and at 1.75v. My temp is still only a maximum of 14C above ambient after an hour long burn in. As I type it's at 36C and the ambient temp in this room is 27C giving a delta of just 9C at idle.

I've just looked at a review of the Iceberg and it looks to be a simiar setup:
http://www.amdmb.com/article-display.php?ArticleID=218

I can only think it's something to do with you're installation, particularly the contact between the CPU and the water block.

When the system has been on for an hour or so have a feel at the water block and the radiator. Do the both feel hot to the touch? Both my water block and radiator feel only slightly warm as the water keeps them nicely cool. If your block and radiator feel cool then then water cooling system is operating fine and the issue is the contact between the CPU and the block.

If the waterblock feels hot then and the radiator is cool then you have a problem with water flow through the system. If the whole system feels hot then the radiator isn't doing it's job properly.

It's well worth the effort of lapping the water block to a smooth finish as you'll get much better heat conduction. I did try using AS 3 compound but I found it difficult to install the block without scraping some of the AS3 compoud off part of the CPU so in the end I went back to ordinary white goop which seems to work just fine.

Also configuring the system so the water flows uphill, i.e in at the bottom, out at the top for both the rad and the block will ensure the water follows the most efficient path.

The actual rate of water flow around the system isn't all that important. Water takes a lot of heating up. With a low water flow, the water will heat up more in the CPU block giving you a slightly higher temperature but will also cool down more in the radiator so overall the diffence is only a couple of degrees.

A flow of 3.2 l/min, 189 l/hr, 41.6 gal/hr (uk gallon) will limit the temperature rise of the water to 1C accross the block with a 80W heatsource. Most CPU produce less than 80W

Ant


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