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  Re: RIAA throws a fit, goes after P2P end users 
 
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Rhort Jul 03, 2003, 11:15am EDT Reply - Quote - Report Abuse
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http://www.hardwareanalysis.com/content/article/1638/

It’s all take, take, take with companies these days. :( All I can say about their drop in revenue is, “Good! I hope they die on their @rses!”

I’m actually old enough to remember when vinyl started to go out and CDs came in, back in the mid-to-late 80s. In the UK at the time, the price of a vinyl album was around £8 (equivalent of about 12EUR or 13USD) and the price of exactly the same album on CD was about £14 (20EUR or 23USD). If you ask a band, or an individual artist how much they get for the sale of each album, they’ll tell you that it’s around 80p (1.15EUR or 1.33USD). Ask the record companies about the difference in these amounts, and they’ll tell you that it’s down to marketing, shipping and packaging that they have to fork out for. Now (and I’m not trying to be patronising here, but) I don’t know if all of you have ever seen a vinyl album, but it’s about eight or nine times as big as a CD and if you sneeze in its general direction, it breaks (or at least scratches). Logic thus suggests that the shipping and packaging of CDs is considerably easier (and cheaper!) to do than it was with vinyl. Assuming that to be the case, we must then further assume one of two things in order to explain the rise in price from vinyl to CD; either it costs much, much more -- at least 75% more, not including the amount saved on shipping and packaging, to market a CD album than it does to market the same album on vinyl (adding the words “available on CD” to the bottom of an advert must be considerably more expensive than you’d think), OR, if that’s not the case, then the record companies simply conned everyone into buying the albums on the (then) new format and pocketed at least 75% extra profit themselves, and have been doing for the last 15 years.

No sympathy from this corner, and that’s for sure (just in case anyone was in any doubt :D)

As for any ideas of subscription based services, I can’t see what the incentive to do that is, when users can just go online and download everything they want for free from any one of a thousand sources, and I suppose that’s the basis of the record companies argument at the moment and they’re shouting and moaning about it and tying themselves in knots with multi-million dollar lawsuits without answering the real question, why do we need them at all any more?

About 18 months ago, here in the UK, the No.1 record in the charts had been written (and original versions recorded) by a bloke in his bedroom, with a PC and some fairly unexciting audio software. Doesn’t take much to put a track together these days, and get it down to the local radio station and get it some air time and the song will be in demand pretty sharpish. The only thing most people would need help with is the bulk recording and distribution, but neither of those are done directly by the record company anyway.

If anyone’s ever seen the Monty Python film, “The Life of Brian”, this is the point where we have the “What have the [Record Companies] ever done for us?” debate :)


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angryhippy Jul 03, 2003, 02:09pm EDT Reply - Quote - Report Abuse
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>> Re: Re: RIAA throws a fit, goes after P2P end users
http://finance.vivendiuniversal.com/finance/download/pdf/SuppF...170603.pdf

Vivendi Universal revenue for the 1st 3 months of 2003.
6 billion 232 million euro dollars. I hardly think it's p2p file sharing that has them operating at a loss. Not my fault they can't turn a profit. When I go to the library and take a book to their dopy machine section and run copies of sections in the books, who's paying the royalties to the author. Aren't I stealing. Their threats are having an impact on the p2p networks though. Right now as I look at the KaZaA site, I notice that there are only 4,294,142 users on line, sharing 896,684,586 files. I can only think that the record companies are wasting their time swating at bugs with a flyswatter, while the crops they are protecting are dying in the fields for lack of water. I'm 53 so I don't do a lot of music, but I sure have bought my share of one hit wonder albums in the past. I'm sure not going to pay $15 for 1 song I like, when I know a CD-R only costs pennies. I will have to admit though I did take my music collection off line due to the threat of possible legal action. I was after all sharing 5123 files. I'm not that dumb. The other thing is the courts in Europe have ruled against the record companies, saying the www was created for the sharing of information and as long as there is no profit being made, it cannot be construed oas copyright infringment. So if I am copying off a european file sharer and RIAAs actions force me to stop, is that not a violation of the WTO treaties against constraint of trade?

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John Bailey Jul 03, 2003, 02:33pm EDT Reply - Quote - Report Abuse
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>> Re: Re: RIAA throws a fit, goes after P2P end users
If you go further back, I belive the recording industry were up in arms about reel to reel tapes, cassette recorders, video recorders, and even radio? Music has been copied since sheet music came out, and will be copied one way or another for all time. I defy anybody to say they have never had a bootleg copy of an album in their lives. If they want to reduce copying, then make it worth buying the legitimate item. The quality issue is a red herring, despite the killing off of DAT tapes for audio use. People were copying just as much when all they had access to was a record player and a tape deck. Possibly more, as the equipment was readily available and simple to use. the technology has got more complex and much more expensive, so if anythig fewer people are ripping CDs into MP3 and distributing them on the net.

Perhaps its a bit difficult with music, but surely they could provide something... like access to extra content for owners of the CD if they have the disk in their drive when connected to the net, or some kind of extra stuff that isn't digital. Some pictures or stickers of the musicians or something would possibly keep the young teenage market <the biggest demographic I think> happy, or prize draws for concert tickets or memoribilia woth lots of prizes so many people could win.Many of the oldies are back catalogue stuff that isn't on release anymore or is only available in low price compilations anyway, so the amount lost that way is much smaller.

On a personal note, I bought the standard release of Lord of the rings last year. I just bought the extended version recently because I liked the extra content after I borrowed a friend's copy<possibly copyright infringement, but it caused me to buy my own copy> . So the company who produced this product got paid for both copies of the movie that I bought. I never bought pre recorded video tapes, so the introduction of DVD has given the movie companies a new costomer. Now I rent AND buy because I get the movie and usually a directors commentary and a behind the scenes feature I wouldn't see otherwise. I rent quite a few movies, and of those, I would watch perhaps 5% a second time. So even if I copied them a hundred times and put them on every P2P network, I still wouldn't buy them. The ones I do like enough to want to watch again, I buy because of the extra content as much as the movie its self.

On the music front, like many adults, I rarely buy music CDs. And then I usually buy from the bargain bins, so nobody is going to get rich off the royalties of my purchases.

Copy protection is counter productive. Its been tried in the software industry and found to create more problems than it solved. Extra technical support issues, extra costs giving customers replacement media, reluctance to buy caused by not being sure that your new purchase is going to work on your equipment. Resulting in more people buying non copy protected software than those who were prepaired to stick with the frequently crashing key disk/dongle stuff if there were an alternative. As computers and home entertainment equipment converges, how many of these copy protected disks will work in newer multi purpose equipment?

Copy protection is only tolerated in games because the consumer has no choice. No company is going to release an identical game even if the competitor allowed it, so if you want to play the latest super first person shooter with extra 3D gore, then you will have to get company "X"s product.
They are eventually cracked, but that can be solved by issuing frequent updates which require the user to find yet another crack program. Neverwinter nights by BioWare does this and while I don't know how many copies are being played illegaly, they have sold quite a few copies of the game, and have a thriving community of people designing new modules for their own enjoyment. Each generation of the new modules then requires the latest content and bug fix patch from the company, which means the pirated ones need to be re cracked again and again. Extra content is what is selling a lot of the newer games in my opinion. A fixed game is only going to last a given amount of time, but one where you can play again and again is going to have lasting appeal and extra revenue from upgrades and add on modules.

To sum up my take on the whole RIAA mess..

The RIAA members are not looking after the interests of the poor penniless artists. They are trying to prolong the life of an industry that has had its day. The music industry doesn't promote talent any more, it promotes a short lived disposable product.

As soon as someone figures out an effective way to charge even a token amount for P2P music, they will become extinct as the good bands will start selling their music directly to the consumers. And it can become so cheap to buy that its not worth the effort to pirate the stuff.

Brendan Munro Jul 03, 2003, 04:15pm EDT Reply - Quote - Report Abuse
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>> Re: Re: RIAA throws a fit, goes after P2P end users
I think I have the right to download music. why? because here in Canada we have to pay something along the lines of $1.00 in taxes for every CD-R we buy that supposedly goes to artists. The first thing that gets me about all this is it doesn't matter what you use the CD-R for, you still pay the tax. Second of all, the money never goes to artists, it goes to lobbyists in Montreal. I think because I'm already paying the artists, I should be able to download music.

CJ Wilson Jul 03, 2003, 04:43pm EDT Reply - Quote - Report Abuse
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>> Re: Re: RIAA throws a fit, goes after P2P end users
RIAA !!! get a clue !!
Music right now is so homoginized that it all sounds the same !!!
it doesnt have the same bite as it used to.

Singles have vanished from the face of the earth as we know it..

And most of the albums out there ... well the plastic was more expensive (per lot of 5000)

so am I gonna shell out $20.00 for a coaster that has one song on it (maybe two ) thats any good ? HELL NO !!

if I can download enough songs to make a more educated choice am I going to do it ? HELL YES!!!

Ya see its amatter of eveolution:
Buy a record... Put on Cassette or reel to reel for portability and protection
Buy a CD........ Make an MP3 and shove it on one of them Juky boxes for portability and if you have kids, Protection

what did we learn about cassettes... able to trade for other songs , dubbing decks allowed the sharing of songs with others....

the quality was inferior to the original source due to tape hiss (a way to spot a dupe)
but it was good warm analog...

what did we learn about CD's: Untill recently the CD was a direct window to what the actuall master sounded like when it was mixed in the studio..
for studio purpose: it could be dubbed down 100;s of times with out signal degridation. (hmmmm goes holywood)

now with computers you can make digital backups of your originals and they will sound the same (relativly speaking) (hmmmm PROBLEM goes holywood)
Now whats the deal with MP3's ? NOTHING!! Under the equation of "things get better over time" MP3, WMA, OGG...> they are nothig more than the cassttes of the 21st century... the sound quality suffers but not as much as cassetts also you can burn them bcak to CD after you come from your friends house (hmmm do I see the return of "sneaker net?".. so unless you really care that your Madonna MP3 sounds JUST (and I mean BIT FOR BIT )like the original CD then by the CD ... if you are not a big Madonna fan and you cant get the single at all because its a rare cut and you missed out on buying it when it was new ... download it !!!!

RIAA ... its not my fault that you cant keep up with the times and find a way to make sure WE THE PAYING PUBLIC gets access to as much music as we (thats WE) want.

Im personally tired of listening to the radio and hearing the same 35 songs when each artist sweated bullets to get an entire album done per the record lables contract!!! face it ... if the artist was just putting out a single I think the tables would be different ... NO they are NOT they are busting thier ass for a whole record because thats what thier contract calls for and the record industry is supposed to promote it ... well hearing one song for the rest of the summer just to buy an album that in all intense purposes the A&R people forced them into doing is not my idea of a well rounded promotions deal ... I will download it and make a choice to pass or buy...

to suffer through and realized that I spent $20 on crap ?> I will download it

if Im an artist and I have some tunes that I want to share with the world ... Id rather market it myself ...may not be as effective as the big boys schmoozing most of the radio stations that they control.

hey Nora Jones Cleaned HOUSE at the Awards and I have her album ( no you arent gonna get it played on CHR radio ) BUT that was quality work well worth my $20.00 but I bet you didnt know she sung with the Dirty Dozen Brass band ...and guess what... yup I had to download that one ...

it comes down to this if a store doenst make money hand over fist from a record sale because of an "unknown artist" that CD doesnt get much shelf space if any atall ... so the only line of defense we have is to download it .

If your record store consists of a hole in the wall type location that only caters to that majority of peole in your community and Columbia House records dont have what you are looking for ... hmmm whats there to do ? THATS RIGHT download it ... So if the RIAA wants to get back into the green and back into our good graces ... I will be the first to line up with a few terrabytes of disc storage a couple goof reel to reels and maybe a record player or two and get my collection of good music because the RIAA sure doesnt have a pulse on what the problem really is...

also I think this deserves mentioning ... when technology became smaller and cheaper and people became more empowered. project studios were the rave ... now guess who had their hands in that ?


Wildwood Jul 03, 2003, 05:23pm EDT Reply - Quote - Report Abuse
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>> Re: Re: RIAA throws a fit, goes after P2P end users
You all make good points here. I also believe that the RIAA is on the wrong track and heading for disaster. P2P in one form or another has been here since the beginning of the internet. Wasn't that why it was invented in the first place? It used to be that you got all this stuff through FTP sites and underground websites (with those pesky nudy popup ads). Then came Napster. All has changed now. And the RIAA (backed by the movie industry) wants to stop it. They can't. The best thing they will be able to do is drive it back underground. BUT- there are alot more net savy people out there now. And they're used to getting these songs free. Where there's a will, there's a way. The underground websites will be booming again. With all those pesky nudy popup ads. I've been around a bit longer than most of you. My first tape player was an 8-track. What a bulky piece of junk those were. The record industry was up in arms about that. Because of the possibility of people copying. Then cassette tapes. Same response from the record industry. I can't blame them for wanting to protect their BILLIONS in profits. But times do change. Learn to recognize change when it is occurring. Then learn to adapt. Isn't that one of the most basic tenets of bussiness operations? The RIAA, like the movie industry, is gasping for air. And if they don't adapt, they'll go the way of the 8-track. Simple, basic, economics. Easy to get, good quality, inexpensive, music is here to stay. Let them adapt. Or let them die.


angryhippy Jul 03, 2003, 05:53pm EDT Reply - Quote - Report Abuse
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>> Re: Re: RIAA throws a fit, goes after P2P end users
Hey Josh! Got you beat Bro. My first tape player (portable for the car) was a 4 track. By the way those of you who checked the link for the Vivendi Universal State ment check the breakdown per division. They took in 1.1 Billion Euros in the first 3 months of this year, with operating expenses of 28 million. And they are one of the major crybabies pushing RIAA! DID I READ THAT RIGHT? By the way, I can go to the media room at the local library and check out CDs any time I want.

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ben wilson Jul 03, 2003, 09:24pm EDT Reply - Quote - Report Abuse
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>> Re: Re: RIAA throws a fit, goes after P2P end users
boo hoo i only made billions of dollars last year off of an art form that was never mine to begin with oh how terrible :(

slasher ses Mar 10, 2006, 02:56pm EST Reply - Quote - Report Abuse
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Edited: Mar 10, 2006, 03:23pm EST

 
>> Re: Re: RIAA throws a fit, goes after P2P end users
I don't know whats worse... The Free "Claim your IPOD ads or this whole CopyProtection crap... lol".

On that note last time i checked the only "True Original" works by any artist including those both of film-makers and the music industry alike are either recorded live on location/movieset or in the music industries case live at a music recording studio until the an original work is completed and the same goes for all other artists of all kinds. Now if the finished work is the only "True Original" source completed by an artist at a particular location where ever that might be than everything else that the industry mass produces for (KEYWORD: "FOR THE PUBLIC" ) are all in essence nothing more than mass produced COPIES made by the industries for public dissemination, entertainment ect.
That being the case the industry in its infinite wisdom is selling everyone "MASS PRODUCED COPIES" since there is only one true original work created by any given artist yet the industry has the GALL to treat the public as criminals when they've cornered the market and are guilty themselves of creating what amounts to nothing more than a legal way to sell COPIES!!
The reason original Artists creating such works don't sue the industry is because in the final analysis the original artists hold the rights as well as the studio producers and the industry funnels them with royalties in essence paying/buying them out while the industry itself robs and pockets the vast majority of the publics hard earned cash producing billions of COPIES worldwide for a product which is meant for the public in the first place while they sit back and reap the rewards for their LEGAL REPLICATING BUSINESS mass producing copies for the public only to turn around and say no one else can copy them only they can because its ILLEGAL??
Hmmm last i checked there are criminals out there but the biggest one running the largest operation runs amok LEGALLY WORLDWIDE selling COPIES of originals works by mass producing them and then LEGALLY shoving their duplicates under the noses of the public at large as if their copies were originals themselves which is insulting as anyone with common sense knows there's only "ONE" true original created on location or at a given set.
The next time someone decides to sue they should bring this point to the table and do away with this whole copy protection crap which is a violation not only of the fair act use but an insult to the very concept of freedom as these works by so many talented artists are inspired and created for the public to begin.
The industry continues to RAPE the public as if the public at large doesn't know what a blank media really costs vs how much they charge for they're um "Legal Copies" let alone who much they must be making and you mean to tell me that those who put the bread and butter on their tables (the public) dont have the right to copy a favorite song or to protect our original investment which we've spent hard earned money on let alone be able to have a copy at hand of a cherished title to carry wiith us on a trip or where ever we please while our supposedly original Industries "Copy" stays safely tucked at home?
Don't let industrial crooks take away our rights... fight back, sound off and let em feel us and hear us loud and clearer than even their mass produced copies!!

DarK_SlayeR Mar 10, 2006, 03:05pm EST Reply - Quote - Report Abuse
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>> Re: Re: RIAA throws a fit, goes after P2P end users
Payton said,

"The other thing is the courts in Europe have ruled against the record companies, saying the www was created for the sharing of information and as long as there is no profit being made, it cannot be construed oas copyright infringment. So if I am copying off a european file sharer and RIAAs actions force me to stop, is that not a violation of the WTO treaties against constraint of trade?"

I say,

Hot damn, that is cool!!! Take that beotches!!! :)

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slasher ses Mar 10, 2006, 08:14pm EST Reply - Quote - Report Abuse
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Edited: Mar 10, 2006, 08:39pm EST

 
>> Re: Re: RIAA throws a fit, goes after P2P end users
Here's another good one point.... you go to a store you buy an ordinary music cd and get 14 to maybe 26 songs if that depending only to discover when you get home that the artist work is mostly weak and the greater majority of songs downright suck... Now we're treading on grounds of consumer rippoff being forced to pay X-amount of money for a cd that only has a few good tracks and to boot its all set up so one has to buy several titles in order just to get a decent amount worth hearing not to mention at prices nowadays to track down older stuff or several specific titles of interest one has to shell out a decent amount which isn't funny while the FREEDOM OF CHOICE allows those to buy a street compilation which in some cases surpasses the supposed legitimate one's sold in stores with a few exceptions as not everyone wants store bought selections or likes most of whats sold in its entirety. Hasn't the industry heard that the old saying that the "Consumer is always right"... it seem nowadays more like COPY-PROTECTION woes and worries take presidence over CONSUMER-PROTECTION which is the real shame. The public's been ripped off for years and with the advent of cd cassette tapes the same woes were heard and the same tears were shed and everyone heard oh how the poor industry was suffering losses just like when VHS first emerged.
In reality the industry is a giant and has always done well so don't fall for that crock as the only real bug up the industry arse boils down the emergence of Consumer Awareness as they know the consumer is tired of substandard products ranging from movies to music compilations ect and that people plain and simply are seeking to spend their money elsewhere which you can't blame people for doing so with the high rising costs of society versus the lower standard's of many products which have declined so naturally people tend to go with the flow and seek diversity not adversity which is what the industry is unwittingly creating.
These DOLTS must not realize that with the advent of newer schemes will be newer methods and tactic's of breaking them as the public knows tyranny and will always find a way to free itself of such not to mention simply ceasing to purchase products which one cannot fully enjoy in a normal fashion because copy protection is an infringement on the publics fair use rights and seeks to strip the freedom of a consumer by saying hey you can buy it but you cannot copy it because its not allowed which seems more like a contradiction in terms considering it is a consumer's right to own what the buy... fair use dictates thats, freedom dictates that and consumer relations dictate the same so this dictatorship-like tactic of copy-protection schemes shares more with communism than it does with fair marketing practices thus being a volation as well of our civil rights.... The industries monopoly on all media and its stranglehold continues with practices which have failed time and again and which only make consumers angry, its policy of "All for us while we control whats for you" only breeds rebellion and anarchy being directly responsible for the current state of affairs meanwhile cost's continue to rise much to their chagrin while qualitative products seem to decline becoming all the more scarce being replaced by a floatsom of crappy cds, lowbudget films, poor or defective media and a breakdown in consumer relations and yet they seem to be telling the public you can look but don't touch, taste but don't eat, buy but don't share, own but don't copy... Total chaos perhaps insanity.
Don't fall for Copyprotected merchandise nor give them a penny out of your pocket if you can get it elsewhere for a reasonable price or when you can do so much better elsewhere while being able to fully enjoy your hard earned moeny's worth and send these assclowns a CLEAR THUMBS DOWN so they can shove their DICTATORSHIP-LIKE COPYPROTECTION scheme and anything even remotely similar far up where the sun don't shine so .... NUFF SAID!!

Down with the corporate assclowns and STAND UP FOR YOUR RIGHTS... by any means necessary even if one has to create new technology or reverse existing ones to find our way from TYRANNY... Never let em make yuh sweat because FREEDOM has only one face.

Adam Kolak Mar 10, 2006, 08:19pm EST Reply - Quote - Report Abuse
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>> Re: Re: RIAA throws a fit, goes after P2P end users
The RIAA will eventually fail when the current 12-20 year old generation becomes older because this new generation wont allow the RIAA to pull this kind of BS, like the current 30-50 year old generation who do not know any better.

Adam Kolak
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