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Corvus Raven Nov 05, 2004, 11:07pm EST Report Abuse
>> 
Make me number eight.. incase you didn't add me there.

I have both Intel and AMD base systems.

I not only made the AMD one but prefer it to my Intel machine which happens to be used primarily for the internet. I prefer AMD to EVERY other intel based out there. Period. Even the Duron. Hell.. a 1.5Gig DUron can and HAS outpreformed 2.2GHz Celeron procs. and even low end P4's. Excuse me if I think Intel is there for expensive crap! That's just the way it is. Anyone that has no clue, is not an overclocker and not particularly informed.

I supect that you would say that M$'s windoze is a better o/s environment just because it is the most widely available.. ("only available retail".. is close.. but SuSE is available as a few other *nix as retail package. :) )


Most widely available, Most Expensive.. etc.. does NOT mean the best!.. In most cases calling them "runners-up" would be boarder line or at best par.

--------------------------
ASUS A7N8X Deluxe PCB 2.00 w/ BIOS 1005 (cause? Dunno.. ATM)
AMD XP 2800+ @ 0.0 GHz 0MHz FSB (overheating for no appearent reason)
(2) - Corsair XMS512-3500C2 (5-2-2-2T) @ 0MHz
ATI Radeon 9700 Pro @0
Enermax 500W p/s (ok.
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James Marlin Nov 06, 2004, 04:58pm EST Report Abuse
>> 
Thank's for getting my back there Wizard. ;)

Athlon XP M 2500+ (12x200FSB=2.4 ghz, PR 3500+), Soltek SL-75RN2-L, 1gig 3200DDR Ram, ATI X800GTO, NEC MultiSync FE991sb, Creative Audigy OEM, Logitech 5.1 speakers, 40gig HD booting XP, 200gig@50%games, Lite-On DVD burner, LG 52x32x52x
Josephus Ni Nov 06, 2004, 06:06pm EST Report Abuse
>> 
Yeah, Dell stability...what a joke. Imagine you're at a tradeshow, and you have two systems side by side, one Dell, one powered by AMD Inside. While Bill Gates is coming in a few minutes to see a head to head demo of the two systems, the Dell systems goes down. What would you do?

A. Curse the Dell system while go and look for the techie? (oh wait, I forgot, you are the techie)
B. Curse the Dell system and try to fix the system in the short amount of time (oops, you can't, cause you just don't have the equivalent parts from Dell, who skimps on many things, including tech support, which they've now successfully moved to India, costing hundreds if not thousands of American jobs)
C. Curse the Dell system and explain to your Vice President what had happened and hope that Bill Gates will just look the other way and that this won't embarrass the company you work for.
D. All of the above (and just be glad you didn't get fired, since it really wasn't your fault anyway).

By the way, Bill Gates may be a multibillion dollar mogul, but he is not a man of large stature, by any stretch of imagination.

Not to bash the OEMs or anything, but man, do they cut corners when it comes to building a system! Ultimately, the best systems in the world are still built by you, who is knowledgeable about the PC hardware, who, while do value your hard earned dollar, will pick quality hardware and stability (of course, backed by extended vendor warranty) over cheap/unreliable hardware/system anyday.

So, if you want to place blames for bad hardware, please consider yourself one possible target, since you have made the decision on which motherboard, RAM, storage devices, video, nic, modem, heatsink/fan, power supply, you bought. And yes, CPUs are one of the most reliable components in today's computer system provided you keep them suffciently cooled (and that other components don't zap your processor).

Joe

Corvus Raven Nov 06, 2004, 06:50pm EST Report Abuse
>> 
I didn't want to mention that part of Dell.. (Didn't realise ALL support went out of country, though)

Nut nearly all of the OEMs are like that. Though as big as Dell is.. you would figure they are better, non?

Oops.

--------------------------
ASUS A7N8X Deluxe PCB 2.00 w/ BIOS 1005 (cause? Dunno.. ATM)
AMD XP 2800+ @ 0.0 GHz 0MHz FSB (overheating for no appearent reason)
(2) - Corsair XMS512-3500C2 (5-2-2-2T) @ 0MHz
ATI Radeon 9700 Pro @0
Enermax 500W p/s (ok.
Josephus Ni Nov 07, 2004, 10:54pm EST Report Abuse
>> 
Not ALL Dell support has gone out of the country. There are, for example, corporate/government/education institution that are still here (of course, they are the best paying customers Dell has).


dark Nov 11, 2004, 12:53pm EST Report Abuse
>> 
Please excuse the lenghty post, but I feel there's a lot of ground to cover on this topic. :-)

My wife and I started and run a small custom computer business. I've never owned a Dell because I've always built my own systems, although I did buy an 850ghz Athlon by HP at one point and had nothing but problems with it. It went through 3 processors in 2 years before I gave up on it. In fact, it came with a faulty processor that couldn't read .jpg files. It took HP almost a year to identify that problem.

There seems to be a lot of criticism about Dell on this thread, but little of it has to do with reality. In their defence, the market in high end computers isn't worth worrying about for computer builders. Of our customers (and we'll build anything a customer wants/needs from personal computers/notepads to small business networks) we get less than 1% asking for high end gamers. Our profit margin is the same regardless of the system sold.

The fact is, that unless you're high end gaming, you can't see a difference in speed from an Intel to an AMD. Not many people will sit at the computer with a stop watch to compare. The internet, word processing programs, start up and shut down, and middle of the line games all run quite smoothly and at the same speed on a 1.7 P4 as they do on an AMD 4000+. Its a shame that there isn't more competition for enthusiasts, but its also a fact of life that there's no payback for that market share. Components jack up their prices with each new release, no matter how insignificant the advantage over the last model. Its only the enthusiasts who will pay the added costs for these minor upgrades. So if you want to place blame for the system, blame the people who pay these ridiculous prices for components simply because they're the newest thing on the market. Until people refuse to pay those prices, things will never change, and why should they?!

What MOST customers do see, is how long their systems last and the amount of problems they encounter. Both my wife and I started building with AMD's. Together, we lost 4 of our own complete systems in less than 2 years as the processors died (not counting the HP), taking everything else with them in the process. Neither of us was looking forward to making the transition to Intel at the time, but looking back it was the smartest decision that we've ever made for our own systems and our business, which haven't cost us a dime for failures since then. Since starting this business 3 years ago, we've had a total of "1" P4s come back for repairs (power supply took out the processor and MB and Antec was great about replacing everything at their cost). We've had "112" Athlons come back for repairs in the same time period. 10 of the AMD failures were "possibly" caused by power supplies. None were as blatantly obvious as the power supply failure on the P4, so we ended up footing the bill for all of them. We've built 10 times the amount of P4s as AMDs, so these numbers are even more remarkable. Now we will only build an AMD if a customer specifically requests it. I'm in the process of ordering parts for another AMD to give to our son for testing longevity while he games, so I haven't given up on AMD, but I'm not expecting much either. We give out 1 year warranties for our AMD systems and 3 year warranties for P4 systems. Our business ran in the red for the 1st 2 years, mostly because of returns with AMD systems. Quite often its much more than the processor that goes, which really eats into a profit margin. We were in the black this year and expect to "comfortably" stay that way from now on.

Intel has a reputation of quality and AMD does not. Its taken many years for Intel to prove themselves. We frequently get customers wanting to "upgrade" (I use that term sarcastically, but that's what they ask for) their P2s and P3s. Some of these systems are 7 years old. I have yet to see any customer bring in even a 4 year old AMD for an "upgrade". They simply don't/haven't lasted that long.

As one member here pointed out, he wouldn't buy a Dell because it can't be upgraded. I think that's the point that most of you anti-Intel people seem to be missing here. Most of you are high end system users. Most of you upgrade regularly to keep your systems at or close to state of the art, so how long the processor lasts is not very important to you as long as it makes it until your next upgrade. That's all great, I do the same thing with a couple own systems to keep up with the new technology. But we represent a very insignificant share of the market, and any successful business focuses on market share. For a high end gamer, you're better off building your own system or going to a true custom builder than a Dell/HP/Gateway anyway. Each business has to go after a market niche. I love playing with the new technology and so enjoy building and testing the high end systems. By the same token, I can understand why Dell doesn't want the business. Its hard to keep up with and there's no pay back to it.

Another point that I have to take issue with is the cost of LGA 775 systems being more than a 478. I own 2 775s and am in the process of converting most customers to them. The reasons being that they
1) that they are just as cheap as a socket 478, 2) most customers will never use more than the supplied onboard audio and video, which eliminates the need for video and sound cards, and 3) they run cooler, thus will last longer.

1-2) I don't know where this person is getting his components from but our prices are actually substantially cheaper for an LGA 775 for the average user who will utilize the onboard sound and video. When you factor in the MB, cooling, and PCI/PCIE cards. They are almost identical prices if I need to add a mid range PCIE video card. I can make a better deal for a gamer on a 775 with a top of the line video card than I can on a 478. Our MBs have the Creative 7.1 onboard sound, which is as good or better than 95% of the PCI sound cards available now anyway.

3) The entire idea behind the 775 has nothing to do with speed. Its all about better efficiency, thus better cooling. Lower heat = longer life. My 2.8 P4 (478) idled at 65C and overclocked to 3.4 ghz at a whopping 75-90C (3dmark05 hit the 90C after an hour). Very similar to what the new AMDs run, and quite a pain to try to find decent cooling solutions for.
The 3.0 and 3.2 (775) both idle at 49C and overclock to 3.6 and 3.8ghz (repectively) at 55C under the exact same test conditions. All of this was with stock cooling systems, although I've added a Gigabyte 3D Rocket Pro (pcu22-vg) to my 3.2 system now, but that's mostly for looks. I've never needed anything but the lowest speed setting for the fan. IMHO, a person would be foolish not to go with a 775 for the operating temperature alone. Both the 478s and the 775s were run in the same cases, Lian Li 65s with 5 fans. I now run with the front 2 fans disconected and have no difference at all in temperatures. I could never have done that with the 478s. What you might save in cost for an AMD, you spend on cooling solutions and replacing it in half the time. Hardly a savings when you think about it and for only a very small increase in speed.

A new AMD 4000+ high end puter costs almost exactly the same as a high end P4 Extreme Edition. Sure... the AMD is a tad faster (Its all been about very minor improvements in speed since the 2.0 ghz barrier was reached unless you're into competitive gaming or benchmarking with unrealistic test results). Whether the AMDs will last as long as a P4 remains to be seen. That's where bang for the buck is for most users, dependabilty, not a very slight increase in speed. Until AMD establishes that reputation for quality and do away with their "throw away/disposable" reputation they are a risk for most computer users. I'm sure you can build a much older/slower AMD for cheaper than an old P4 because the P4 prices just don't drop like the AMDs do after a few years (instead Intel pulls them off the shelves where AMD continues to build a few), but we don't deal with old systems. Neither does Dell that I'm aware of.

I don't mean to offend any AMD fans, which the greatest majority of you seem to be. I'm simply offering a different perspective based on my own life experiences. Personally, I love competition and hope that AMD can become as reliable as Intel. However, so far as my own experiences go, they aren't even in the ball park. I make more profit on Intel systems simply because my customers don't keep coming back for repairs/replacements, and very few people seem to care about having the fastest computer around. I find it hard to critisize Dell for the same reasons. :-)

Gigabyte GA-965P-DQ6
805D@4.14GHz
PX7900GTX THD Extreme
2x1g Crucial Ballistix PC2-6400 CL4
OCZ Powerstream 600w
Logitech G5
Koolance Exos2
OCGW Nov 11, 2004, 03:32pm EST Report Abuse
>> 
David, Welcome to HWA

Don't worry about "offending" anyone, this is a forum, for open discussion.

Honestly, taking everything you are saying as your sincere opinion, no one here would be offended @ your conclussions, because, quite frankly, I am (and I am sure many others are) "amused" by anyone trying to "upgrade" a (7) year old comp

OCGW

PEACE

What is the name of your company?

Please post a link to your website sir.

Corvus Raven Nov 11, 2004, 04:11pm EST Report Abuse
>> 
:)

I think that Dell I have is closing in on 6 or so years.

..umm not sure.. can't think back that far. :)


--------------------------
ASUS A7N8X Deluxe PCB 2.00 w/ BIOS 1005 (cause? Dunno.. ATM)
AMD XP 2800+ @ 0.0 GHz 0MHz FSB (overheating for no appearent reason)
(2) - Corsair XMS512-3500C2 (5-2-2-2T) @ 0MHz
ATI Radeon 9700 Pro @0
Enermax 500W p/s (ok.
Alex-E-C-396 Nov 11, 2004, 07:49pm EST Report Abuse
>> 
I bought the fastest computer I could get, below a four XEON system, in February of 2003. It was an Athlon 2700. I purchased it with a Leadtek motherboard. Within the first six months the AMD chip burned up and I had to mail it back to AMD and the motherboard broke twice during the first year. My other computer is an Athlon 900MHZ which I was given buy a friend and I replaced the motherboard after the a AGP or PCI video card would not work. Both computers run perfectly fine. The AMD2700 has 1.5GBS of ram two 60GB IBM hardrives and both machines have Nvidia Ti4200 8X AGP video cards with 64MBs of ram on each one. That just reinforces the fact that AMD chips overheat to frequently. I have had about twelve computers over the last ten years. One of them was a 400MHZ Pentium II which I sold to my grandpa about five years ago for $100, which is still running. I have had four Intel mahines and around eight AMD machines the only machine I have had a problem with is the AMD2700. The AMD900 has run perfectly fine the whole time I have owned it. Have any of you folks had problems with AMD or Intel chips?

Alexander E. Calvo
alex-e-c@sbcglobal.net
OCGW Nov 11, 2004, 08:09pm EST Report Abuse
>> 
That is funny, Alex

Let me tell you a little story

I had just built a comp w/ a 2500+, I started it up, and it shut down, I started it up, and it shut down

figured out I didn't have the cpu hsf plugged in, thermal protection kicked in like it was supposed to, 2, or 3 times, comps been running fine night and day every since

Just my opinion, but no comp, Intel, or AMD is supposed to burn out because of heat, it is supposed to throttle, and shut down if the mobo is functioning correctly

OCGW

PEACE

James Marlin Nov 11, 2004, 08:44pm EST Report Abuse
>> 
Like I said before, never had a problem with CPUs, every other type of hardware, well sometimes yes, sometimes no. I must be lucky, and what's really funny, 90% have been AMD products.

As for AMD longevity.
My "cast off" systems I know about:

AMD 400 K6-2 on a ASUS TX-P4, gave to my baby brother and it's still running fine, must be 6-7 years old now.
AMD 500 K6-2 on a DFI SS7, (forget the model), sold to some friends, last I saw them around a year or so ago it was still fine, must be a 6 year old system by now.
AMD 500@550 K6-2+ on a Tyan S1590S Trinity 100AT, was using it 24/7 for peer to peer up till May, rock solid. My current girlfriend has it, and it's still working great. Has to be 5-6 years it's been running now.
AMD Athlon XP 1600+ (Palomino) on a ASUS A7V266-E, built the system to run WinXP which came out in Oct 2001, so it's 3 years plus, CPU still runs fine. In fact I'm typing this on it. It's my non-gaming/everything else system.
AMD Athlon XP 2400+ (Tbread) on a ASUS A7N266-VM, sold to friend/neighbour, hasn't had a problem with it, been running close to two years now.
AMD Athlon XP-M 2500+ (the system in my sig), going to be a year in April, not one CPU related problem.

There were a couple of Pentium systems before the first K6-2, I think one died, after many a year, the other is with an ex, so I don't know, don't care (bad break-up that one).
Between the K6-2+ and the 1600+ there was one more system (800mhz AMD TBird Socket A), no idea what happened after I sold it, but it was a solid system, and I would assume it still is.

Ps. Yes, I've never owned a "slot" based system, I'm most likely wrong, but they always seemed a little "hokey" to me. Give me a nice "solid" socket every time. ;)

Athlon XP M 2500+ (12x200FSB=2.4 ghz, PR 3500+), Soltek SL-75RN2-L, 1gig 3200DDR Ram, ATI X800GTO, NEC MultiSync FE991sb, Creative Audigy OEM, Logitech 5.1 speakers, 40gig HD booting XP, 200gig@50%games, Lite-On DVD burner, LG 52x32x52x
Brian Stewart Nov 11, 2004, 08:52pm EST Report Abuse
>> 
"Just my opinion, but no comp, Intel, or AMD is supposed to burn out because of heat, it is supposed to throttle, and shut down if the mobo is functioning correctly"

I'm sorry.
That's not opinion, that's FACT.

most XPs and P4s (if not all) have thermal protection built in.

MSI K8N Neo 2 Platinum
1 GB DDR 400
Athlon 64 4600+
6800 GT
Corvus Raven Nov 11, 2004, 11:40pm EST Report Abuse
>> 
I belive that would be the case as well. Thermal protection is in the lot. And is a good thing too. :)

Umm.. not that I should know why. ;) :P :)

--------------------------
ASUS A7N8X Deluxe PCB 2.00 w/ BIOS 1005 (cause? Dunno.. ATM)
AMD XP 2800+ @ 0.0 GHz 0MHz FSB (overheating for no appearent reason)
(2) - Corsair XMS512-3500C2 (5-2-2-2T) @ 0MHz
ATI Radeon 9700 Pro @0
Enermax 500W p/s (ok.
dark Nov 12, 2004, 02:06am EST Report Abuse
>> 
Thanx much for the friendly welcome. I really enjoy reading other peoples experiences with computers and their opinions, whether we agree or not. :-)

I'm actually a yank who's migrated to Australia recently. Our website is still pretty much under construction/trial as we haven't really needed one yet. Nice thing about being in a city with a million people on top of you. :-) It needs to be updated as well to include the 775s, but here are the links.

http://www.users.tsn.cc/ultramax/ (listed with google)
http://www.ultramaxcc.com.au (not listed with google yet)

I'm in the process now of building another AMD for testing purposes. Undecided if it will be a 939 or 940. Of course it'll be a long time before we know how well it holds up.

Dell must be doing something right. ;-)
http://money.cnn.com/2004/11/11/technology/dell/index.htm

Gigabyte GA-965P-DQ6
805D@4.14GHz
PX7900GTX THD Extreme
2x1g Crucial Ballistix PC2-6400 CL4
OCZ Powerstream 600w
Logitech G5
Koolance Exos2
some guy Dec 21, 2004, 11:35pm EST Report Abuse
>> 
two words for Dell : Dell hell

Faisal Rahman Feb 09, 2005, 04:51pm EST Report Abuse
>> 
you people are crazy....the best processor in the world is.....

THE INTEL 4004 PROCESSOR!!!!! w00t!!!!!
http://www.intel4004.com/

Faisal Rahman Feb 09, 2005, 05:04pm EST Report Abuse
>> 
does the AMD 64 processors have PCI Express technology? I heard you cannot have PCI express graphics cards like the Radeon X800 XT PCI-e version.....I really want to custom build my own gaming PC and I will be spending about $5,000 on it.....my uncle isgoing to by me a gaming PC soon.....so I need your help. Please tell me the top of the line computer parts!! thanks but this is what I can think of now

AMD 64 4000+ 2.4GHz
4GB DDR2 RAM
ATi Radeon X800XT (if AMD64 supports PCI-e,I'll get it, if not I'll get regular AGP)
1.6 to 2.0 TB of hard drive space
Logitech MX1000 Laser Mouse
regular wireless keyboard (got a question....r ZBoards good?)
Sony 16x Dual-Layered MultiFormat burner

any good additions?

Michael Poteat Feb 09, 2005, 07:13pm EST Report Abuse
>> 
You can get PCI express with the AMD 64. Motherboards have just been released for the AMD which support PCI express.

Michael Poteat Feb 09, 2005, 07:19pm EST Report Abuse
>> 
From the ASUS website:

"Representing motherboard engineering at its best, the performance of A8N-SLI Deluxe is not for the faint of heart. The SLI (Scalable Link Interface) technology enables two PCI-Express cards on this motherboard to provide extreme performance over the edge. Enjoy the latest games with most visual effects; go ahead with the most graphics demanding multimedia utilities. Don't worry, this mobo is good enough for you, the question is, are you game enough for A8N-SLI."

So you can even have two PCI-Express video cards! Probably overkill unless you are going to keep the same machine for several years. Also, I would buy a NVIDIA video card (I had an ATI 9700 pro and it was a great card but I like the 6800 cards).

dark Feb 09, 2005, 07:32pm EST Report Abuse
>> 
Gaming isn't my strong point, but I'll offer what advice I can on the subject.

No AMD uses DDR2. They all use PC400.

4GB of RAM is extreme overkill for a gamer. So is 1 TB of hard drive space, let alone 2. 512-1G PC400 RAM and a 40-80G hard drive is a better gaming system. The idea is to keep it clean and simple for speed when gaming.

If you want a gamer, you don't want this hardware setup. If you want a burner and space for storing movies (assuming that's what the DVD burner is for), then you're taking away from the gaming capabilities of the puter.

You didn't even mention a motherboard, which is the backbone of any system. Gigabyte and Asus offer motherboards for PCI-E Vid cards with AMD. Check out the reviews on the GA-K8NXP-9 (nforce4 Ultra).

Honestly, no offence intended, but I think you should research a LOT more before you spend $5000 on a system for gaming. I can build a state of the art gamer with SLI for less than that. :-)

Gigabyte GA-965P-DQ6
805D@4.14GHz
PX7900GTX THD Extreme
2x1g Crucial Ballistix PC2-6400 CL4
OCZ Powerstream 600w
Logitech G5
Koolance Exos2

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