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  example of fallacy 
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Citizen T. Feb 08, 2005, 04:40pm EST Report Abuse

The gravity and damage of stealing a cart full of CD's and DVD's is the same as for downloading it off the internet because the content is the same.

Wrong. This statement clearly depicts an error in reasoning.

Two examples to disprove:

There are people who would never* buy any of the stuff that they download. A download of a song, does not represent a $1 or $2 profit loss.

When you steal a CD from a store, you leave them out of a CD, jewel case, booklet, shipping & packaging charges and content. When you download a CD from the internet, you download a COPY of the content, leaving the original where it was.

Final Note: Downloading copyrighted material of the internet is illegal, there is no doubt about that but drop the ridiculus comparisons.

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Sander Sassen Feb 08, 2005, 05:11pm EST Report Abuse
>> Re: example of fallacy
You fail to see the point I'm making, downloading CDs and DVDs in the virtual world, the internet, is similar to stealing CDs and DVDs in the real world. This has been the line of reasoning throughout the article.

Sander Sassen
Editor in Chief - Hardware Analysis
Richard Bailey Feb 08, 2005, 05:57pm EST Report Abuse
>> Re: example of fallacy
I think you're missing the point the poster is trying to make, and it's the same reasoning I was thinking of while reading the artice.

Yes the dollar value is similar, but in the "real" world, you leave the store (or whatever) without what they were going to sell. If you steal a candy bar, the grocery store cannot now turn around and sell that said same candy bar. If you steal a cart load of CDs, the store can't turn around and sell those said same CDs.

On the 'net you are not depriving the store of their merchandise, just their sale. In the real world your depriving the store of both.

Note however that piracy is still wrong.

OCGW Feb 08, 2005, 06:06pm EST Report Abuse
>> Re: example of fallacy
You need to stop spreading that LIE, do you work for the RIAA?, It has never been illegal in the U.S. to download copywrighted material (for personal use)

It is only illegal to distribute, or sell that material



Citizen T. Feb 08, 2005, 06:21pm EST Report Abuse
>> Re: example of fallacy

I dont work for the RIAA, i was just illustrating a point however i did think that it was illegal to download copyrighted material for personal use.

Perhaps you can cite your sources that say it is not.


None None Feb 08, 2005, 07:05pm EST Report Abuse
>> Re: example of fallacy
I agree with the first poster - a false anology, but still Sander's point is both clear and taken.
My personal opinion is that piracy, or rather the downloading of copyrighted material could be turned into something successful, just as the author suggests, but as it is now, with all the major content providers hanging on to a more and more outdated model, with all the goods in stores, piracy is very likely to continue to both exist and grow.
I think the Half-Life 2 game and Steam is a very good example of this. (see last week's discussion)
You are able to download HL2 directely fron the net, and if you download it from a P2P network such as DC++ or whatever, then you still have to have a valid key code, in order to play the game, which is a very good feature and as far as I know almost completely stops piracy!
On the other hand Steams implementation of the key check is rather edgy and not-so-smooth... Having the key checked each time, and only being able to play the game at the leisure of Valve's servers is not a very compelling thought - a key check, only when playing online, would be a lot better. My point being that HL2 has a good model for software distribution, but it could be made better.
One other thing the content providers must bare in mind is that the downloading of programs and music, etc, should be smooth - not like Adobe's program which only can be run once. (if there are difficulties installing the software on the first try, the installer can't be used again...)


OCGW Feb 08, 2005, 08:02pm EST Report Abuse
>> Re: example of fallacy
This is the U.S. Copywright Law

Read it

NOWHERE in it does it state that downloading copywrighted material is a criminal offense

You have only deprived them of a sale if you distribute it , or sell it



Citizen T. Feb 08, 2005, 08:38pm EST Report Abuse
>> Re: example of fallacy
Yeah, I dont think im alone here when i say that the copyright law is not an easy read due to the cryptic nature of law-writing, it is not concise, straight forward and it oviousliy can be interpreted in more than one way.

I see that it does specify that it is illegal for public distribution or resale. So if it is the case that it is legal to download music, movies or anything else for private use, then i ask what are the grounds for suing all the people that have been taken to court by the RIAA?


Tony Perez Feb 08, 2005, 09:17pm EST Report Abuse
>> Re: example of fallacy
They are being sued because they are sharing not downloading the content. They are caught not while downloading the material but while sharing it. RIAA or whatever does a search for copyrighted material. If your sharing your stuff, they get your IP, and call up your internet provider to get your info. Then you get a letter in the mail.

OCGW Feb 08, 2005, 10:16pm EST Report Abuse
>> Re: example of fallacy
That's just it

Lawsuits are civil remedies for monetary damages

Just because somebody sues you DOES NOT mean that a crime has been commited

Because somebody can sue you for damages does not mean what you are doing is Illegal

If there is a law saying that something is illegal, and you do it, they write a warrant for your arrest, you are arrested, arraigned, post bond, and are prosecuted, you got to pre-trial, & then to trial in a criminal court, & if convicted you go to jail

If no law has been broken, but someone thinks you caused them some monetary damages they take you to Civil court, & they file a complaint, there is discovery, a hearing, deposition, arbitration, & maybe a civil trial, if you are found responsible you pay damages (compensatory, & punitive damages)

ps. Yes sharing is providing (Illegal), downloading is receiving (not illegal) Tony Perez is right



Citizen T. Feb 09, 2005, 10:08am EST Report Abuse
>> Re: example of fallacy
ok so they were sued for sharing, but anybody can still be sued for downloading and not sharing since by the RIAA dowloading is a monetary loss. So the fact that it is not illegal doesnt really help you much correct?

ps. thank you for the info

None None Feb 09, 2005, 10:14am EST Report Abuse
>> Re: example of fallacy

Rooin Feb 09, 2005, 04:04pm EST Report Abuse
>> Re: example of fallacy
Yet again Im going to give the "High-school educated" version of Sanders comparison.

a Shopping cart full of CD from a Store


a metiforic shopping cart fulls WORTH of CD from the Internet.

What I think he is saying, is that MOST (not all) People who Download Music from the internet, after they aquire a song off the internet or in some cases a Whole CD, DO NOT go out to the store and BUY that CD. In otherwords hurting the Sales of the CD. Granted there are the people who download a song first, like the music they are hearing and then go purchase the CD from a store, or off a program such as iTunes. In a sense the better way of saying that is that. Downloading songs from the internet is not like stealing the CDs its just not buying them at all. The CDs at the store are still availble for sale, but there are going to be a lot more people who Pirated their own CDs rather then go buy the full CD and its contents inside that little jeweled case.

Now Yes in the US, to my understanding its NOT illigal to Download Music. But it is my understanding that you must own that music, in order to do so. In otherwords you Purchased that music, and do have the Copyrights of that CD in your posession. (I think Im right on that anyway)
its like DVDs you can copy them all you want, but if you discard or give away or even resell your DVDs your supposed to destroy the copies or give them to the person that is getting the Original.

Either way. Piracy effects CD/DVD sales. The Companys who continue to spit out CDs need to look at where they can still make their buck. I think they could make as much money as they do now. by skipping the packing shipping and retail store selling and just setup Online Sale servers like iTunes. and cut back on the CD retail demands. Not everyone can download music and burn their own CDs but as times are changing, close to everyone will be making their own.

just MHO take or leave it :|

"Even Satan wouldn't use customer service as a form of punishment." - Lucas
Brian Stewart Feb 09, 2005, 04:10pm EST Report Abuse
>> Re: example of fallacy
There are people who would never* buy any of the stuff that they download. A download of a song, does not represent a $1 or $2 profit loss.

There are people who would NEVER buy anything they steal from a physical store.

and as far as your second point
Packaging is EXTREMELY cheap and the pressing of discs costs on the order of fractions of a cent per disc.

Beyond that, physical stores are INSURED for theft, copyright holders are NOT insured against the losses they incur due to people downloading.

Therefore, downloading is MORE damaging than stealing a physical copy.

STOP spreading your lies about "downloading is not illegal, only distributing is illegal" because it's NOT true.
The courts have ruled TIME AND TIME AGAIN that people who DOWNLOAD copyrighted material are breaking the LAW, and they have ruled TIME AND TIME AGAIN to punish them for it.
Regardless of what the copyright law says, the courts have interpreted it this way (which is the RIGHT way - it is WRONG to steal, and it SHOULD be illegal)

If you STILL think it is perfectly legal to download copyrighted material, WHY do people get taken to court, fined, sued, and jailed for it?

MSI K8N Neo 2 Platinum
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OCGW Feb 09, 2005, 05:23pm EST Report Abuse
>> Re: example of fallacy
Now Citizen T. we are on the same page

Yes it is possible to be sued for simple downloading

But that doesn't make it illegal (criminal)

& it doesn't make you a pirate

But, if you don't get into the P2P networks, they probably will never find you

The worse that can happen is you have to pay for what you already got for free

I REALLY resented being told I am a criminal, & a pirate when I am not

As a matter of fact, I was a PIRATE, I sold a few DVD's & CD's (& I knew it was wrong when I did it), but I don't do that anymore (I am reformed), now I use my computer skills to repair & upgrade comps

I am a law abiding citizen

& Brian Stewart, if you read the example above you will see that those people were prosecuted for SHARING, NOT DOWNLOADING

Can you really build, fix comps, & not grasp the difference between simple downloading (for personal use) legal under the "FAIR USE ACT", & sharing where you become a provider, & distributer (ILLEGAL)?

The court case cited proved MY point



Citizen T. Feb 09, 2005, 06:27pm EST Report Abuse
>> Re: example of fallacy
hey there Brian Stewart, that inductive reasioning that you have going there is an example of an unsound argument. Basically its another fallacy.

Citizen T. Feb 09, 2005, 06:30pm EST Report Abuse
>> Re: example of fallacy
So, OCGrandWizard, how would you categorize downloading bit torrents? you are not really sharing the full copyrighted material unless you are seeding, however you are distribuiting small parts of it at a time.
That seems arguable in both directions, what do you think?

OCGW Feb 09, 2005, 07:37pm EST Report Abuse
>> Re: example of fallacy
I am going to say something that is going to shock you

Let me be brave


There I did it, that wasn't so bad, only hurt a little

I have never used torrents, but I guess if you are distributing in any way, & you are found out, they may have a case



j osborn Apr 06, 2005, 02:18am EDT Report Abuse
>> Re: example of fallacy
We can debate this issue all day and into next year if you want, piracy will still be around. I am still gonna participate. However, if you know something about torrents and bitcomet, then you are obviously 1. a pirate, 2. an internet pig, or 3. someone who works for one of these billion dollar businesses or you just have your head way up Lars Ulrich's ass. Anyhow, life in the city, in a way, is like life in the jungle, instead of survival of the fittest its more like survival of the richest. Analogy: In the jungle lets say you have a lion and he needs food, and you have a hyena who needs food. Well, one on one the lion would kick a hyenas ass and get the food. So the hyena gets smart and gets a few buddies together and gets the food the next time around. This is the way the hyena stears clear of extinction. The lion may feel like the hyena cheated him, but then again the hyena feels like it was cheated because it was born a smaller animal. Just like the real world. Big, rich and wealthy people who have it all don't need to pirate and can't believe someone would or could do that. So us pirates are using the resources and information at hand. In the jungle if you don't succeed, you die. In the city you become transient. It's all fair game. And by the way, did George Washington buy the U.S. from the Indians???Hell no! He just took it and now its ours. Killed all the Indians who got in his way. That's terrorism. People high up on the totem pole are afraid to lose all the bullshit they have bought because they depend on it, and they get all their money by overpricing all the stuff that the average income American buys. So its all relative. I don't want to pay that much for bullshit CD's that will scratch if you breathe on them wrong. I am gonna take what I can get in this world. To all the corporate f**ks...aren't you the guys that came up with the catchy phrase, "Its not personal, its just business"

jAMMER "There's ways around that."

OCGW Apr 06, 2005, 07:01pm EDT Report Abuse
>> Re: example of fallacy
Nice post

I used the 800lb Silver Back Gorilla analogy in one of my posts



Citizen T. Apr 06, 2005, 07:47pm EDT Report Abuse
>> Re: example of fallacy
Well said j osborn.

Stealing, like everything else is a relative matter.

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