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  Re: AMD chipsets, quirky by nature? 
 
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GameTyro Feb 21, 2005, 03:17pm EST Report Abuse
>> Re: Re: AMD chipsets, quirky by nature?
With the UTMOST respect for all those with opinions. You ALL seem to know a LOT about what you're talking about, but I was just wondering what are some of your credentials? Especially Mr. Sassen, Varun Rao, and some others who gave extensive reasoning to all of your arguments. Is it that you work in a test lab, or that you buy a lot of computers? Just wondering.... because I'm a pretty big AMD fan, but I'm never completely loyal when it comes to technology.

Matthew
GameTyro

* GameTyro (Gaming Name: Kanjou ; Gaming Clan: -[RASE]- )
- AMD Athlon 3800+
- 2GB OCZ Gold Series PC-3200
- nVidia 7800GT 256 DDR3
- 250GB WD 7200rpm SATA150
- 300GB Seagate 7200rpm SATA150
- Standard Logitech Keyboard
* Getting time to UPGRADE!!
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Amalfi Marini Feb 21, 2005, 03:37pm EST Report Abuse
>> Re: Re: AMD chipsets, quirky by nature?
Let's summarize my experience with AMD chipsets:

first Athlon chipset: AMD 756+751
Slowest of all, great system response (that means I could install a game, burn a CD, listen to music and surf the web and the system is always responding new commands). Very stable, run with an Slot A Athlon 750Mhz Thunderbird 24/7 for several months. That Athlon runs quite hot, slot A needed 2 fan coolers. Couldn't overclock the chipset system bus to more the 105Mhz (210Mhz)

VIA KT133: Faster than the AMD chipset, Slow system response, more than 2 or 3 applications running in high priority makes the system useless using a Duron 850Mhz

SIS 745 First SIS chipset for athlon I tested out. Very fast. system response not that well but better, maybe because the high speed of the Athlon XP 1700. Several apps at the same time make "the mouse to loose frames" if you know what I mean. Very stable, run 24/7 for several months, actually the Athlon XP 1700 was not as hot as thunderbird Athlon 750Mhz

SIS 748 on Asrock K7S8XE+ My favorite system chipset after the AMD 756+751. High system response, very fast, specially after flashing beta bios released at overclocking workbench, or using cheepo mem tweak for SIS chipsets. with that tool you can configure the registers of the SIS chip to enable those things your memory may be capable of, but are never enabled (lower Cas Latency, etc)

VIA K8T800 Is my system today with an Athlon 64 3000. Don't like system response with this chipset, I still miss my old SIS 748 for it's wideness of response when many apps are opened, or being loaded. Maybe my next mobo for Athlon 64 will be with SIS chipset. Very Stable, however, I have some trouble with my ATI 9800 SE, it just crashes when playing 3D games, sometimes I have enough luck and the VPU recover apears. Seems that is a heat problem, since I changed the heatsink of my ATI and things went worse... heatsink gets really hot, I should get something better... maybe the Athlon 64 during games gets hotter than my old Athlon XP 1700 which was warm not hot. Athlon 64 is cold when cool n quiet is enabled, running all time at 1000Mhz, but of course, when you run a game the athlon 64 speed skyrockets to 2000Mhz and gets hotter than my Athlon 1700. Of course, it can be a stability issue with the K8T800... downloaded latest bios, still nothing.



GameTyro Feb 21, 2005, 07:39pm EST Report Abuse
>> Re: Re: AMD chipsets, quirky by nature?
Great... I can see you have some good experience thank you. I just bought a new motherboard... I'm putting my new system together piece by piece from the ground up. Anyway I got a new SOLTEK SL-K890Pro-939 from Newegg.com. I JUST bought it minutes ago... it got pretty good reviews and it had all the stuff I wanted on my motherboard so I bought it. I hope it'll work well for me. I plan to get a AMD XP 64 3500+ (939 of course) with either Corsair XMS or some OCZ DDR memory, I haven't decided which yet..... Then there's the matter of which awesome looking case to get since I don't have any tools to mod my own. Anyway, I've blabbered on enough... tootles....

* GameTyro (Gaming Name: Kanjou ; Gaming Clan: -[RASE]- )
- AMD Athlon 3800+
- 2GB OCZ Gold Series PC-3200
- nVidia 7800GT 256 DDR3
- 250GB WD 7200rpm SATA150
- 300GB Seagate 7200rpm SATA150
- Standard Logitech Keyboard
* Getting time to UPGRADE!!
Marius Dan Feb 21, 2005, 08:51pm EST Report Abuse
>> Re: Re: AMD chipsets, quirky by nature?
I've been using an MSI k8n SLI Platinum for a little over a week now and i've had no problems at all. I just unpacked the board , put the cpu in and other components in and that's it. Working like a dream right out of the box. I admit i haven't tried the SLI setup yet as i only have one GF 6600GT but otherwise it works great. I think the secret lies with a decent power supply ( i have a korean made Rextech Aegis 450W). The chipsets are without fault. The manufacturers who hurried to market nforce4 based motherboards are the guilty ones(like ASUS).That's my opnion anyway.

AMD64 3000+ (939)
MSI K8N SLI Platinum
1Gb. DDR400 Geil (2x512Mb)
1Leadtek GF 6600GT Extreme (550/1125 stock)
120 Gb. SATA Barracuda HDD
CDRW LG
DVDRW LG

Sander Sassen Feb 21, 2005, 09:03pm EST Report Abuse
>> Re: Re: AMD chipsets, quirky by nature?
Many people seem to take this editorial as a flame against AMD, which it clearly isn't (you might want to read it properly again, instead of skimming over it). For those of you that commented about the point I was making, here's some feedback.

Firstly I don't doubt that there's people that have stable AMD systems built with motherboards based on new chipset releases, but the vast majority of 'can't get my new motherboard to work' posts on any forum are about non-Intel chipsets, that's a given.

Secondly, my definition of stable might not be similar to yours. Many people don't use their system in a production environment on a daily basis for about 10 hrs a day where any crash, lockup, freeze or other hiccup is simply unacceptable, as worst case scenario it causes you to lose work but at least cuts into your efficiency.

Sander Sassen
Editor in Chief - Hardware Analysis
ssassen@hardwareanalysis.com
GameTyro Feb 21, 2005, 09:22pm EST Report Abuse
>> Re: Re: AMD chipsets, quirky by nature?
Hey I'm with you Sander... I don't take it that way. I'm a diehard AMD fan anyway... there not much you or anyone could do to dissuade that. Way to keep up this site though. I'm quite impressed at how you zip about through all the forums with thousands of posts being made and you actually do quite well to keep up with them... Everyone, let's give Sander a big round of applause for his diligence.... (In all sincerity by the way).... Later

* GameTyro (Gaming Name: Kanjou ; Gaming Clan: -[RASE]- )
- AMD Athlon 3800+
- 2GB OCZ Gold Series PC-3200
- nVidia 7800GT 256 DDR3
- 250GB WD 7200rpm SATA150
- 300GB Seagate 7200rpm SATA150
- Standard Logitech Keyboard
* Getting time to UPGRADE!!
Sander Sassen Feb 21, 2005, 09:46pm EST Report Abuse
>> Re: Re: AMD chipsets, quirky by nature?
Furthermore, you don't have to take my word for it, here's a thread on 2CPU.com's forums about this editorial. Given the fact that the majority of the readers there have either a dual CPU system, or generally know what they're talking about, their comments are worth considering.

2CPU.com forum comments
http://forums.2cpu.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=61857

Sander Sassen
Editor in Chief - Hardware Analysis
ssassen@hardwareanalysis.com
Brent Cherry Feb 21, 2005, 10:18pm EST Report Abuse
>> Re: Re: AMD chipsets, quirky by nature?
I've never had much luck with Intel chips. Maybe it was because I had such crappy OS's when I had them, like Windows 95 and Me I don't know.

I just remember when I had my PIII 533MHz, which I had for about 2 1/2 years. Within the last year I had it, I decided to overclock the CPU to 800MHz and everything was stable. Within the same year, my CPU fan seized up and fried the FSB on my motherboard! :( On top of that, THAT's where the onboard video card was, so that got fried too! My guess is that it wasn't because I overclocked it, but because of age. The motherboard, which was PCChips (not very good), didn't have any warning settings in the BIOS to alert me about the temperatures or the fan speeds in the computer.

So I upgraded my computer to a Athlon FX 2500+ Barton with an ASUS A7V8X-X mobo, and everything was beautiful. But just recently, my computer just decided not to boot, and by process of elimination, we guessed that it was a CMOS virus. So THEN, I upgraded to what I have now.

So yeah, I got a lot of error messages when I had my P3 computer. It got a little bit better once I upgraded to Windows XP Professional. Then, my computer fried up later.

ASUS CROSSHAIR Motherboard
2GB OCZ DDR2 PC2-6400 Platinum Dual Channel
nForce 590 Ultra chipset
Athlon 64 X2 4600+ Windsor 0.9 Micron @ 2.4 GHz EE (Energy Efficient)
BFG NVIDIA GeForce 8800 GTS OC
Creative Sound Blaster X-Fi XTremeMusic
Windows Vist
GameTyro Feb 21, 2005, 11:26pm EST Report Abuse
>> Re: Re: AMD chipsets, quirky by nature?
Wow... I'm really sorry to hear all that Brent. What I think you have is just a terrible case of bad luck! Tootles...

* GameTyro (Gaming Name: Kanjou ; Gaming Clan: -[RASE]- )
- AMD Athlon 3800+
- 2GB OCZ Gold Series PC-3200
- nVidia 7800GT 256 DDR3
- 250GB WD 7200rpm SATA150
- 300GB Seagate 7200rpm SATA150
- Standard Logitech Keyboard
* Getting time to UPGRADE!!
Brent Cherry Feb 21, 2005, 11:28pm EST Report Abuse
>> Re: Re: AMD chipsets, quirky by nature?
ah, don't worry about! :) You just learn from these experiences!

ASUS CROSSHAIR Motherboard
2GB OCZ DDR2 PC2-6400 Platinum Dual Channel
nForce 590 Ultra chipset
Athlon 64 X2 4600+ Windsor 0.9 Micron @ 2.4 GHz EE (Energy Efficient)
BFG NVIDIA GeForce 8800 GTS OC
Creative Sound Blaster X-Fi XTremeMusic
Windows Vist
Amalfi Marini Feb 22, 2005, 12:39am EST Report Abuse
>> Re: Re: AMD chipsets, quirky by nature?
I know this whole discussion tended to be a fight, while it wasn't supposed to... but I think that AMD fan lovers are so loyal that if you even touch the topic "AMD unstability" "AMD uncompatibility" they will always go paranoidly mad and will defend AMD with a knife in between their teeth. I was actually surprised when I first read the title of the documend. "AMD chipsets quirky by nature??? " That's what I felt. I sold many intel and AMD systems and the ONLY reason to choose AMD over intel, is actually, price/performance ratio (maybe much more important than Hyper Threading, 64bit, on die memory controller, heat). Due that I've never seen an AMD system with stability/compatibility issues other than most common in both intel and AMD platforms, I started to think about this article. And here is my theory of why are AMD chipset quirky by nature:

AMD processors are cheap and overcloqueable (most of them). Intel procesors may be too, but their prices, or at least the entire system is quite expensive. What I try to say here is that people that goes AMD most of them will build it on their own, meaning that the system may not be profesionally built (however I know it is as easier as building a car with LEGO). While the ones that go Intel will buy, most of them, DELL, or something that rocks. Let me show in number what I think (if you think I'm somewhat crazy is ok):

From all AMD buyers 90% will build the system on their own.
From all Intel buyers 10% will build the system on their own.
Supposing that AMD has 33% of the market in desktop, that means there are more AMD systems out there built by people who initially never built a system, or had small experience.

I have 4 observations:

In this site they say in the forums, by people experience, that those AMD systems builds have problems running ok out of the box, while there are not as many bad Intel experiences. Well, that confirms what I said before, if there are more failings in AMD systems that's because there are much more people building their PC on their own with AMD. While Intel buyers have Dell or other manufacturers.

Another observation I have is that from all websites I know this one is the only one to complain about chipset quircks by experience. I never read a single problem with AMD systems in tomshardware or any other. That's why this article surprised me at first.

The last observation, by experience in building AMD systems, is that 90 % of the quircks in chipsets are Nforce 2 related. Memory controller in dual channel mode don't like generic cheap memory. Bios upgrade is a must in nforce 2 chipsets mobos, so actually if you build AMD system, extra work is requied.

Moreover, the reason AMD processors to fail and die, by experience in building and servicing them, are 3:
-Bad powersupply combined with bad current in the 220 volt line. I always recommend my customers to buy a surge protector, specially when going AMD.
-Overclocking.
-Bad installation of the hearsink, including:
-The use of thermal paste in combination with thermal tape (fatality)
-Bad orientation of the heatsink, making the processor core to crack due heatsink is installed backward making an angle instead of touching the whole core processor
-People that forgots to take out the damn sticker that says "take out before use"

This is based on PCs that came into my office for servicing.

"Overclocking is a madness" :-P

OCGW Feb 22, 2005, 04:55am EST Report Abuse
>> Re: Re: AMD chipsets, quirky by nature?
let me address your comments w/ some observations of my own

"The last observation, by experience in building AMD systems, is that 90 % of the quircks in chipsets are Nforce 2 related. Memory controller in dual channel mode don't like generic cheap memory. Bios upgrade is a must in nforce 2 chipsets mobos, so actually if you build AMD system, extra work is requied."

I think that depends more on the mobo manufacture than the chipset

I Have a Gigabyte GA-7N400 PRO2 Rev 2.0 I have never upgraded the BIOS, & it is running in dual channel w/ valueram DIMM's that I bought months apart

I also have a FIC AU13, & I have never upgraded the BIOS, & it ran (while I was upgrading my main comp) in dual channel w/ the same valueram

I think there is more "room for error" in the mobo, not the cpu, or the chipset

In my most huuumble of opinions

OCGW

PEEEAACE

varun rao Feb 22, 2005, 06:40am EST Report Abuse
>> Re: Re: AMD chipsets, quirky by nature?
true that.

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Outdated
Francisco Martinez Feb 22, 2005, 11:40am EST Report Abuse
>> Re: Re: AMD chipsets, quirky by nature?
Hmm.. I have an Intel D850EMV2 mobo at work (because I wouldn't pay out of my pocket for Intel junk at home) and an Intel brand NIC causes the mobo to not POST at all. Also, this motherboard already has 25 revisions with an average of 10 fixes per revision. So much for Intel's "awesome" validation labs. I have used 8 different BIOSTAR motherboards with VIA and nFORCE chipsets with no more than 2 to 3 BIOS revisions and all work flawlessly out-of-the-box. Remember, this is the same Intel that swore that all future processors would have to run on slot configurations and now has given the pin headache to mobo manufaturers to save on bent pins returns. Intel's failed marchitectures: MMX, RAMBUS, AGP, ATX, USB (you can daisy chain up to 255 devices, SOCKET 775, SLOT1, SLOT2, BTX, ITANIUM, ETC..

Rick Martin Feb 22, 2005, 05:26pm EST Report Abuse
>> Re: Re: AMD chipsets, quirky by nature?
I got my start building PC's with an AMD 396-40 many years ago. From there it was a P 90. Since then I have gone through almost every genre of AMD up to the AMD 64 3200 754. I have at least 30 of these builds still in use by the many relatives and kids that got my spin offs. The only problems I have experienced have been while waiting for updated drivers (ATI) for example. Other problems such as dropping the heat sink-fan on the XP- 1700 was self apparent.

My latest the AMD64 3200 on DFI Lanparty nforce3 250gb is a pleaasure to own.
1 Gig Corsair XMS 2700 DDR
Adaptec 360 SCSI
1 IBM 15K SCSI 360
1 IBM 10k SCSI 360
9800 All In Wonder
etc.

OC'ed at 3600Ghz on standard inbox cooling runs 38 - 41 C
Biggest speed increase over the years were;

AMD
Went from ATA to SCSI
Went from Dialup to DSL

In short the expensive options provided the biggest jumps in performance but without AMD I would not of even bothered.Who really wants to pay the piper -- ie (INTEL)

I skipped CPU slots, RAMBUS, Hyperthreading as well as heat bound, large cached overpriced extreme screw up editions that really don't provide the average user and fumbling gamer the payoff that will equate with an overall win.

OCGW Feb 22, 2005, 05:36pm EST Report Abuse
>> Re: Re: AMD chipsets, quirky by nature?
90% of all computer crashes are...........

Drum roooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooll

Pilot Error

LOL

OCGW

PEACE

Hardtohit Feb 22, 2005, 05:53pm EST Report Abuse
>> got to say...
As the head computer nerd in my family i've built about 30 different computers over that last 6 years when i first started doing so i went for AMD mainly because of the price... but after the horrible head-ache that turned into i've almost finally got all the AMD's out of my family's computers... i just have to have me dad give up his Thunderbird...

-Hardtohit


"...RAM? Isn't that like what the computer uses to knock things over?" -Uttered by a customer i'm pretty sure was trying to give me a brain aneurism.
====================
System Specs in Bio
GameTyro Feb 22, 2005, 05:56pm EST Report Abuse
>> Re: Re: AMD chipsets, quirky by nature?
eh.... I think crashes are usually do to hardware/software conflicts RESULTING from sum-dum-guy pushing his system further than he should.... no offense to sum-dum-guy.... hehee.. *me*.... Anyway... I do agree with OCGW that it does take a considerable amount of time to built an AMD system, at least for those not fully informed or those mediocre users who aspire to be power users..... I'm really a power user when it comes to software and troubleshooting therein, but I'm a little ignorant to all the hardware technicalities out there. So to prove my point, I've spent well over 30 or 40 hours just researching mobos and trying to configure a complete system (my first one ever, WOOHOOO) which will be without issure (Lord willing). I hope that I have chosen well with the SOLTEK SL-K890PRO-939 K8T890, the first item on the long list of items I must purchase to make my system whole. I haven't even got a case to put it in yet.... hehee...

* GameTyro (Gaming Name: Kanjou ; Gaming Clan: -[RASE]- )
- AMD Athlon 3800+
- 2GB OCZ Gold Series PC-3200
- nVidia 7800GT 256 DDR3
- 250GB WD 7200rpm SATA150
- 300GB Seagate 7200rpm SATA150
- Standard Logitech Keyboard
* Getting time to UPGRADE!!
Anastasiou Steve Feb 22, 2005, 05:56pm EST Report Abuse
>> Re: Re: AMD chipsets, quirky by nature?
I would like to comment on what Amalfi Marini said without being prejudiced with Intel or AMD.Do you know for a fact the 90% of AMD and only 10% of Intel systems is being built up by users?I think this is just an assumption to excuse some instability issues that AMD chipsets have and not a justified statement.Now form my personal experience i have tried AMD Athlon 64 3000 on K8N-E Deluxe and the heat was produced forced me to buy a high performance cooler to run properly.Before that i had crashes of all kinds.When i fixed the heat issue it burned up my Maxtor HD twice.Don't know if it's the mobo or the processor itself.I then changed to Intel 4@3.6">P4@3.6Ghz LGA 775.Ironically the heat produced there was also beyond belief.I played Doom 3 and the processor temp skyrocketed to 71 Celcius...I miss my old P II days :).So i had to install a high performance cooler there too.In terms of performance the AMD was slightly better than the P4 but in certain apps the P4 rocked.In terms of stability though the P4 which is on Intel mobo has never crashed not even at 71 Celcius.I believe that Intel mobos are somewhat slower but more stable and that AMD mobos offer more flexibility to the know-how user.Both have their prons and cons.Dont be biased by either company...

OCGW Feb 22, 2005, 07:09pm EST Report Abuse
>> Re: Re: AMD chipsets, quirky by nature?
Did you have a front inlet fan blowing across the HDD's that "burnt up"?

OCGW

PEACE


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