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  Re: Is AMD finally starting to lose its marbles? 
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Patrick F Jul 21, 2005, 12:57pm EDT Report Abuse
>> Re: Re: Is AMD finally starting to lose its marbles?

What I'm trying to get through to you is that you need to show AMD how they are going to profit from you. I've worked with computers for the last 4 years, and only came upon your web-site within the last few months. there are alot of site's just like this one, and you are in a competitive market yourself. If all your consumers are like me (checking out all the techie sites), then why is AMD going to send you products?!?!?

It doesnt cost them much to send out free products, as long as there is a limit. If they send out new products to every site like this, then they are losing way to much money for their advertising scheme. In addition, they send products to various different manufacturers for their product testing. Sending products out does impact a market to a certain point...they just cant send them to everyone.

If every site has the same product to review, and consumers like me visit all those sites, they are targeting the same conusmers. AMD needs to distribute products to web-sites that have a new market for them. The new market would be the "average joes". What new market are you bringing to the table? To me (and most likely to AMD), you are not bringing a new market to their advertising scheme...just the same market they have already over saturated.

Maybe you do have contacts with AMD, and maybe you are on a first name basis. That still doesnt mean they are going to give you free products. You need to give them a them what you are going to do differently than the hundreds of other sites just like this one.

It seems to me you are a little bitter with AMD over them leaving you out of the loop for their product testing.

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Brian Viele Jul 21, 2005, 01:27pm EDT Report Abuse
>> Re: Re: Is AMD finally starting to lose its marbles?
The problem is there aren't really any websites out there for "Average Joes." The only way average joes can see the product price/performance is through the mainstream PC's on the market.

I do agree it doesn't make sense for Intel to send stuff out to all of the techie sites because they will just be hitting the same market over and over again. They need to get more PC's on the market for people to see comparisons of. It's like any business, if someone goes out and buys and Intel PC from HP/Dell/Sony/etc, runs Doom 3, then goes to a friends and sees the same program running faster, and finds out it's an AMD system that cost the same or less, that's when they'll start getting a different market.

The other issue is that AMD could advertise and market all they want over all sorts of mediums, but what will they say? "Go buy our new, awesome technology from....?" There aren't enough mainstream companies selling their products to advertise for...Intel has succefully crippled AMD's ability to use any sort of marketing and advertising.

That's what this suit is about, putting AMD in a position that they can actually advertise and sell more of their products without Intel pidgeonholing them to just the enthusiast market. Intel doesn't mind losing the enthusiast market to AMD, as long as they don't give up the bigger market that is businesses (mostly Dell) and lay-consumers, so they have made the market Intel biased in such a way that AMD is only truly known to the enthusiast market....

When it's all over, it will just make a much more well rounded market, and hopefully increase competetiveness moreso than it already is...either way it will benefit the average consumer.

Heeb McSneeb Jul 21, 2005, 01:33pm EDT Report Abuse
>> Re: Re: Is AMD finally starting to lose its marbles?
I don't think AMD is going to send any hardware to this site because your reviews just aren't good. They lack adequate benchmarks, description of hardware features, and an overall informed opinion. I don't think it has anything to do with you speaking your mind because other larger sites with great content like Anandtech give criticism when it is due and still receive the latest hardware.

Sander Sassen Jul 21, 2005, 01:47pm EDT Report Abuse
>> Re: Re: Is AMD finally starting to lose its marbles?
Patrick F,

I'm not bitter at AMD at all, as I essentially view this as their loss, we now simply only cover the products from them we can afford to buy. As for their incentive to provide us with samples, I gave an example why spreading multiple samples across smaller publications will get them more exposure than just sticking with the big ones and the fansites, I still stand behind that example firmly. All of these smaller publications individually might not have an added value perse, but their broader audience and multilangual reach combined will cause for far better exposure.

Secondly I did not bring this up just because we are not getting samples, that would be silly and a bit shortsighted, many of my peers I talk to on a regular basis complain about the very same attitude AMD has towards them. So in a sense I'm being the spokesperson for all of these others that would love to inform their readers about AMD's latest but are not supported by AMD. In my opinion we matter, as every other major manufacturer out there bothers to send us samples, either on a loan basis or for keeps, as you can see from the articles on the frontpage. AMD is the only one that refuses, and not just in our case, many other publications of similar size, or somewhat larger/smaller, have the same story. Obviously buying each AMD product that is introduced would be a nice interim solution but is not feasible due to budget constraints.

Hence I'm not out to burn AMD at the stake, I am however posting this column as a clear message to AMD that communication is key. In order for me to inform you, the reader, of AMD's products I need to be kept in the loop and ideally receive early samples so we can do a thorough evaluation of the technology. Of course you can go to a fansite for information, but that's hardly a trustworthy source of information, yet AMD rather supports them, than other sites that have a less biased opinion of their products and might not do a favorable review. In the end many people would rather see a product be picked apart and weighed for its pros and cons by a few publications rather than by one or two, as is now the case with most of AMD's launches.

Despite some of the claims in this thread we don't favor Intel over AMD, if you've read some of my previous columns or articles you'll notice I just as gladly pick at Intel if they have a soddy product, I'm here to inform you, our reader, of what products to buy and why and I don't take sides regardless, even if there was an advertising deal used as a leverage as some of you seem to suggest. People that know me personally are aware of the fact that I rather speak my mind than not and never beat around the bush, which sometimes gets me into trouble because the truth might be a bit much to swallow for some manufacturers.

True to its slogan Hardware Analysis attempts to give you the information you require to make a good purchasing decision or get a proper, or alternative, view of things that are going on in the industry. If that means I have to call a manufacturer's bluff you can rest assured I will. We however don't think long winded reviews are the way to go, you don't listen to the Best Buy clerk for 5-hrs straight when you're about to purchase a DVD player, hence we keep it short, to the point and factual, which the majority of our readers seems to appreciate.

Sander Sassen
Editor in Chief - Hardware Analysis
Thermalfreak Jul 21, 2005, 02:08pm EDT Report Abuse
>> Re: Re: Is AMD finally starting to lose its marbles?
AMD gives out review samples....they get reviewed... what happens? best case scenario every techie in the world buys amd...great thats 20 more than before.....

sites like these wont make people stop buying Dell and buy amd....

big advertising doesnt work becuase it gets drowned by amd one way or another....

existing demand by mainstream is drowned cuz of intel's actions legal or not....

sure they can send more review samples though theres plenty on the web and i dont think sending more to more sites wont make a dif...amd powered products need to end up at the end user if anything

Ive snapped:
An xbox360 and a 12" iBook....
And a kawasaki er-6n to mod instead
Chng Eng Hui Jul 22, 2005, 01:46am EDT Report Abuse
>> Re: Re: Is AMD finally starting to lose its marbles?
What AMD claiming for is actually the loss in opportunity to have a fair share of access to its market potential.
No marketing would be successful without a market to develop. An extreme example would be to promote the benefits of chewing gum in Singapore, whereby on the other hand, the sale of chew gum is banned! Can sales be achieved with a great marketing strategy in the absence of a market? We have the answer.
AMD has made the right move to bring a lawsuit against Intel. In the complaint, it has successfully shown that without any unfair tactics its competitor has deployed, the sales AMD chips has increased, even with its marketing strategy remains unchanged. This is sufficient to show that it has been deprieved of its fair share of market potential. AMD should maintain its current marketing tactic to secure a better position in this lawsuit.
By the way, to be involved in a lawsit is already a very effective marketing tool by AMD.
They have my full support.

Dieter Chan Jul 23, 2005, 02:30pm EDT Report Abuse
>> Re: Re: Is AMD finally starting to lose its marbles?
You know your arguement is so totally flawed yet you defend it like you really believe in it.

In one reply someone mention why would a engine manufacturer advertise their engine? Instead it is advertised with the car as a package. So taking that line of thought then following Intel bullying of AMD in getting system intergraters like Dell, HP etc to buy more of their (Intel) cpus and limiting or even outright preventing them to buy AMD's cpus. Then following that the mass public buys pc's based on brand name like Dell or HP or even Macs. Now, the mass public doesn't care much of what company's product is in the the brand so long as the model that they are interested in the brand matches their budget and status. Status I mean the amount of Whoha the PR department of the brand puts into it. So if a company like Dell does not sell AMDs and every Joe Sixpack really loves Dell mind you that means that AMD cpus must suck.

Oh my gosh!! Did you say suck?!? Yes, suck. After all if a MAJOR BRAND COMPANY does not even carry a pc with an AMD cpu in it there must be something wrong, right? So why in the hell would AMD benifit sending review samples to review sites or spend a big mess of money on Marketing if all the system intergraters are restricted from buying and using their cpus?

What is the sales persons of those companies gonna say? 'Oh well actually AMD is better but we don't carry much of them." You be thinking, 'yeah right there must be something wrong' if a company doesn't want to their majority of their products installed with the better cpu.

Hence this lawsuit will crack open that mofo tyranical grip that Intel has on system intergraters so AMD can successfully enter that market. And yes in the end will the grip of death released from Intel allow the system intergraters fully promote AMD to the public.

Thermalfreak Jul 23, 2005, 03:56pm EDT Report Abuse
>> Re: Re: Is AMD finally starting to lose its marbles?
Once again....ahmen to that!

Ive snapped:
An xbox360 and a 12" iBook....
And a kawasaki er-6n to mod instead
Sander Sassen Jul 23, 2005, 05:44pm EDT Report Abuse
>> Re: Re: Is AMD finally starting to lose its marbles?
Dieter Chan,

"Hence this lawsuit will crack open that mofo tyranical grip that Intel has on system intergraters so AMD can successfully enter that market. And yes in the end will the grip of death released from Intel allow the system intergraters fully promote AMD to the public."

That's indeed what AMD is hoping for, the problem is that this lawsuit could take a few years to come to any conclusion and that conclusion might not be as clear cut as AMD is aiming for. I mean making deals with manufacturers to maintain brand loyalty is not uncommon and quite acceptable in this and many other industries.

What is more interesting to keep a close eye on is the fact that since the lawsuit came into effect Intel will refrain from making any deals that are illegal or bordering on being illegal (provided they ever went that far). Hence from now on, and not starting when the lawsuit has reached a conclusion, AMD has a wider playing field, as Intel will need to be more careful as they're now being closely watched. If there's any truth to the claims AMD is making (and I'm sure there's some truth to them) we'll see an increase of AMD systems in the stores and also more advertising for them.

If not, well then I guess selling Intel systems is still more profitable than AMD and thus AMD has its work cut out for them. They'll need to start educating the general public about the 'engine' (as you dubbed it) that's inside a PC and why their engine is so much better. Either way it is never a bad thing to educate the end user about your product and that's something AMD fails to see. They think in OEM deals and large volumes but they should be approaching this from the other end, by creating a demand for their products with the end users and then the OEMs will eventually come knocking on their door offering to buy their processors.

In the end the most successful salestool still is marketing and getting brand awareness with the general public no lawsuit is going to best that.

Sander Sassen
Editor in Chief - Hardware Analysis
Dieter Chan Jul 24, 2005, 11:33am EDT Report Abuse
>> Re: Re: Is AMD finally starting to lose its marbles?
Ok first off, ad campaigns and we are talking abotu competant ones with fairly a lot of bling bling with whatever info AMD wishes to educate the public with will cost anyway from 20-50million for both print and tv media (and maybe billboards etc). So wince AMD only got 3 fabs and don't make billions of bucks profit each quarter where in the hell are they gonna find the means to reallocate that money from? R&D? No way in hell. Infrastructure? Also no way. Cut backs on staff? What, chase off the wonderful talent that they have now? Nope, they can't.

With the lawsuit in action Intel's bullying tactics will more or less waylaid enough that system intergraters will be brave enough to advertise that 'yes they have an alternative brand cpu' and 'yes it just as freaking good as Intel's' and 'yes god willing cheaper too.' This type of advertising from those big shots will have a greater impact than what AMD can ever hope to do. Plus AMD will save tons of money.

Now to go on to the public's mentality, the public has been brainwashed for SO MANY YEARS how on earth would you be able to penetrate that type of state of mind from a small fart company (which i can tell thats what all the average joe's are thinking) point of view? I mean you ask anyone on the street these few questions, 'what pc you gonna buy', 'what cpu would you want in it,' 'do you know there is another cpu you can install in your pc,'? And they will answer, 'intel,' 'intel' and 'but i heard intel is the best from Dell (HP, Gateway, etc).

Intel advertising campaign although nice is almost meaningless to the public. It was the advertising done by the big system intergraters that hammer home the Intel name and all its products. What a great laptop? Get a Centrino because it has Intel technology inside, all of it makes your laptop absolutely the best!! Desktop? Nothing better than Pentium 4, look for our Intel Inside in our brochures (funny there wasn't any AMD desktops there). All Intel sucessful brainwashing was done by system intergraters cause they didn't have any other anvenue. So the only way AMD hopes to solves this problem is to sue Intel, put pressure on them and give the system intergraters enough leeway in hopes they will correct some of the brainwashing.

Cause you know nothing is more powerful than Dell, HP, Gateway, Acer, Toshiba, etc suddenly saying, 'You know what people? We also sell AMD stuff and its pretty damn good otherwise we wouldn't carry it. Come see.'

Peter Chan Jul 24, 2005, 12:53pm EDT Report Abuse
>> Re: Re: Is AMD finally starting to lose its marbles?
Dear Editor,

You have to understand that AMD with its lawsuit is pursuing a dual strategy. One, it is trying to bring some accountability into the CPU market place - whether AMD can recover any damages from Intel or even win the case is secondary. Two, ever hear about the "new" Coke - just the thought that the formula of a product we all know and love was being altered caused a worldwide sensation - you can't buy publicity like that. The lawsuit against Intel is carefully orchestrated by AMD, though it appears that there are quite a lot of mavericks running loose. The lawsuit will publicize the technological superiority of their CPUs against those currently manufactured by Intel. True, there are a lot of sheep out there who are rather clueless as regards to the inner workings of their computers, but when you see a Pinto exploding due to a slight nudge in the back, most people get the message.

As regards to whether or not AMD should provide samples - well, life is a compromise. Pick the the products you want to review and forget, even if regretfully, the rest.

Best regards

Peter Chan

Shadow_Ops_Airman1 Jul 30, 2005, 01:21am EDT Report Abuse
>> Re: Re: Is AMD finally starting to lose its marbles?
the only thing that intel has going for them awsome is them Pentium M CPUs, their Dual Cores and P4s based on Prescott Core all Suck Ass.

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Thermalfreak Jul 30, 2005, 10:10am EDT Report Abuse
>> Re: Re: Is AMD finally starting to lose its marbles?
I think they really need to push dothan, scrap precott and just make everything from now on based in some way from dothan's architecture or example....

Ive snapped:
An xbox360 and a 12" iBook....
And a kawasaki er-6n to mod instead
daniel ellis Jul 31, 2005, 04:56pm EDT Report Abuse
>> Re: Re: Is AMD finally starting to lose its marbles?
Well, without reading any posts, and I hope Im reiterating, the only reasons intel outsells AMD is cause: a, they "own" every OEM out there. name one OEM that doesnt sell Intel, and OEMs such as Dell only sell intels. b, Intel has more plants and therefore has more to sell, not that this is really a major factor, but it should be noted. c, They advertise, not only intel advertisements but OEM advertisements also, "power and performance of and intel P4" is always mentioned on Dell, Hp or Gateway commercials, this because if they say Athlon the viewer is like "wha?".
back to wether or not AMD is losing their marbles, I say in a sense, yes, but you need to understand their frustration, they must feel like the friendly local clothes shop in the shadow of a shopping mall, but not only that, the more frustrating part is that they sell BETTER products at LOWER prices. This leads me to the "monopoly"intel has in the cpu market, this being because they know AMD cant out sell them, and they know that as long as they control the OEMs they will never need to lower their prices and increase their cuality.
However the biggest killer of our friend AMD is the publics ignorance towards terms such as "bandwidth" and "clock speed". People think that just because the Intel Cpus have a higher clockspeed they are better. but no-one has ever mentioned anything about bandwidth and how therein lies the true performance. why do you think the prescotts are so bloody hot? their clockspeed, more clocks means more power (electricity) meaning more voltage and wattage meaning more damn heat! but the average consumer doesnt know this.

I ask you to go outside and ask five random people if they know what AMD is, then tell them about your computer (if its an AMD) and dont say anything about your clockspeed, Ill bet the first thing theyll ask is "whats its clock speed?" or "how many ghz is it?".

sorry bout the long post

Poseidon Aug 03, 2005, 09:54pm EDT Report Abuse
>> Re: Re: Is AMD finally starting to lose its marbles?

This AMD & Intel situation is WAY long overdue. There is so much proof that Intel does not play a fair game. I really hope AMD comes on top with this claims & law suites. Intel is like a leech, they will suck the industry dry, greatly slow PC technology down & force monopolization.

AMD is doing the oposite by far with innovation & good future proof technology.

Go AMD all the way, & may the Greeks build your every move ;)

The GREEKS - Agamemnon, King of Argos (the most powerful leader in Greece)
Achilles, the son of Peleus and Thetis
Odysseus, King of Ithaca
Menelaus, King of Sparta
Telamonian Ajax, 2nd greatest Greek warrior after Achilles etc.

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