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  Hm. I don't know about this one. 
 
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Riaan M Aug 25, 2005, 11:59am EDT Report Abuse
>> Re: Hm. I don't know about this one.
Matt,

I'd like to ask you this question, and you don't have to answer. Just ponder it.

Would you have deleted the metallica download if it WAS in fact to your liking? I wager you wouldn't have.

The point is that you cannot use the quality, or lack thereof, of products to decide whether you are entitled to getting them for free. The value of something is completely subjective. Someone else probably thinks it's a great album.

As for your example of "businesses remodelling", I think you missed the thrust of what I was saying. I'm not talking about architectural or physical changes. Businesses like shops haven't remodelled their way of doing business. They still stock stuff which people pick and carry to the counter. Only difference is that they have modified their physical layouts in order to discourage theft. But the business model has remained unchanged.

The only exception I can think of is the online shopping model like Amazon, for example. But it's not a problem for them because you cannot make an exact duplicate a book easily. It's physical goods.

Because digital music is not "physical", it can be duplicated easily, and that's why DRM exists. It attempts to link something nebulous to something physical (A PC with a serial number running appropriate software and hardware) in order to give it that "physical substance".

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Mike Burdett Aug 25, 2005, 12:01pm EDT Report Abuse
>> Re: Hm. I don't know about this one.

ANTEC NINE HUNDRED GAMING CASE - THERMALTAKE TOUGHPOWER 750W PSU
ASUS P5K Premium WIFI AP
INTEL CORE 2 DUO E8400 with ZALMAN 9700 HSF
4GB Crucial BALLISTIX PC2-8500
RADEON X1900XT 512MB & X-FI FATALITY XTREME GAMER SOUNDCARD
Riaan M Aug 25, 2005, 12:10pm EDT Report Abuse
>> Re: Hm. I don't know about this one.
Matt,

"murder \= stealing an album. quit trying to make the connection - there isn't one. to wit: take a life, that life is forever gone. take an album, even millions of them, and they can still be reproduced. at great cost, sure, but they are not extinct."

Downloading an album kills the profit that would have ended up in the artist's pocket. The only way it can be resurrected is not by the industry burning a replacement copy, but by you going out and forking out cash to rectify the effect of your theft.

And don't try and justify it with, "Well, it doesn't make a difference because I would never have bought the album anyway, so they're not losing money." If you wouldn't have bought the album, then it means that the MP3 is wasting your hard disk space,a nd you should delete it, seeing as it's not your taste, not so?

The value of a music file lies not in it's constituent 1's and 0's, but in the human-readable/hearable experience it delivers. THAT is it's value. File copying destroys the profit that the artists receives for creating that VALUE.

There's simply no way anyone can rationalize illegal file copying with any sort of honest argument that remains coherent under scrutiny.


Mike Burdett Aug 25, 2005, 12:18pm EDT Report Abuse
>> Re: Hm. I don't know about this one.

ANTEC NINE HUNDRED GAMING CASE - THERMALTAKE TOUGHPOWER 750W PSU
ASUS P5K Premium WIFI AP
INTEL CORE 2 DUO E8400 with ZALMAN 9700 HSF
4GB Crucial BALLISTIX PC2-8500
RADEON X1900XT 512MB & X-FI FATALITY XTREME GAMER SOUNDCARD
Riaan M Aug 25, 2005, 12:37pm EDT Report Abuse
>> Re: Hm. I don't know about this one.
I agree that the artists are getting way too small a slice of the pie. But the economics involved have nothing to do with the topic, even though some people use it as an excuse.

I would personally LOVE to see artists break away from the recording industry shackles and do it for themselves, however, many a band has tried to do it and gotten off worse. It's a sorry situation.

"And from a tiny river town you came
with momma's rock star dreams in tow
and daddy's brains.

"But the rats they fought you,
oh yeah,
tooth and nail,
With the way they rigged this game
you had to fail..."

Live - "River Town"



Lawrence O. Wilson Aug 25, 2005, 05:07pm EDT Report Abuse
>> Re: Hm. I don't know about this one.
Xris, it seems that the position you take is, after a person makes over a certain amount of money (60K) it is alright to rob and steal from them. So lets apply you logic to YOUR car, if you can afford more than a FORD, the rest of us have the right to steal, take, what ever. Your second car, bicycle, boat or what ever we want that is yours! Ater all, by our standards you make so much more and that is not fair!

Or once you can afford to live in a house that cost more than $125,000.00, those that live in houses that cost less than yours should feel free to raid your house and take what they want! To hell with Law, rights and that garbage!

Funny how GREED always scream and holler when they are put up against the wall and the bolt is thrown home! Don't understand the phrase, " The Bolt Thrown Home"? That means the gun is loaded!

Reason Aug 25, 2005, 05:40pm EDT Report Abuse
>> Re: Hm. I don't know about this one.
well, people \= money, so murder still \= stealing an album.

as far as stealing from the rich, that is wrong - provided they earned their wealth. i feel like we, the consumers, have been getting ripped off for years. stealing back is still stealing, but that's the way they play. they're the big guys, they make the rules, and the rules screwed the little guy until napster blew the doors off.

they wanted to f**k us, and now they're getting f**ked. why should i cry? why shouldn't i f**k them back?

downloaders are doing the exact same thing the record companies have been - as much as they can without getting caught. remember the price-fixing lawsuit? that's the one they got caught on - what didn't they get caught on?

_________________
Ultima Ratio Regum
Lawrence O. Wilson Aug 25, 2005, 05:44pm EDT Report Abuse
>> Re: Hm. I don't know about this one.
I take issue with Sassens' position on over priced.

I wonder what the cost is to buy the property, build the structure, acquire all of the machines need for direct production of the item, buy all the machines need for indirect production of the item. (telephones, scanners, FAX machines, PCs for the workers, ect, ect, ect), employess pay and benifits, electricty, insurance, delivery trucks, reaserch and development, mailing cost, supply cost, insurance cost, advertisement cost,
losses due to theft, damage, warehouseing and its' cost, maintenance and upkeep, COMPUTER SYSTEMS ADMINISTRATION AND MAINTENANCE, office supplies, transportation, did I name everything!

Thoes are real business issues folks! And many businness fail because those cost are not identified before the door is opened. Too, TECH has developed over the last ten years, so the item can be made faster, cheaper and there is a larger market for the item. Remember this, no one has to buy the item. And it is for sure, if the price is too high, there will not be a sale. If there is not a sale, the door will be closed! Just look at all of the doors you have seen closed in your life time. The issues above were not correctly considered.

They are not breaking the law by selling the item on their terms. You don't have to buy the item. But because you feel their price is wrong, that does not give you the right to cheat, steal, break the law. If you really feel strong enough about it, then exercise your right as an American citizen and take them to court!
I feel certain that no one out there would be very happy if some one took any thing of theirs.

And saying it is on the internet and can be downloaded is poor! Tell you what, put your ID and Credit Card on the internet! Why not? You mean you do not want some one to COPY and use it? OK we promise to use it just once, or only the members in my family!

I wonder why I don't see any credit card numbers, Come on Guys, down loading and copying is a good thing, whats the problem!

Mike Burdett Aug 26, 2005, 05:28am EDT Report Abuse
>> Re: Hm. I don't know about this one.

ANTEC NINE HUNDRED GAMING CASE - THERMALTAKE TOUGHPOWER 750W PSU
ASUS P5K Premium WIFI AP
INTEL CORE 2 DUO E8400 with ZALMAN 9700 HSF
4GB Crucial BALLISTIX PC2-8500
RADEON X1900XT 512MB & X-FI FATALITY XTREME GAMER SOUNDCARD
Lawrence O. Wilson Aug 27, 2005, 06:42pm EDT Report Abuse
>> Re: Hm. I don't know about this one.
Mr. Mike Burdett,
If you steal one dollar, if you steal a candy bar, if you steal a car, if you steal 1,000,000.00 Pounds, you are a theif, a criminal end of story! Is alright for me to open the door of your car, that is in the parking lot and help myself to your car radio? I mean, it is in a open public place and I do have a pass key, thanks to todays TEC. on making keys! The music is on the internet, public domain, what is the difference?

Strange, how willing so many are to sell their Integrity for Chump Change! And the excuses are always so pitiful!




vs4562f Sep 12, 2005, 04:43pm EDT Report Abuse
>> Re: Hm. I don't know about this one.
comparing murder to copying an MP3 is just laughable Riaan, and you're coming off as an even bigger GEEK with each post.

The music and movie industries have been ripping off consumers for decades.

If their overpriced dross wasn't exactly that, more and more people would be BUYING IT IN STORES as opposed to 'borrowing' it.

I don't care about their 'profits' - if they spit in my face every time they tell me the price - often $20 for a CD - they can expect me to return the favour.

And BTW, XP suits me just fine, I don't need "Vista", and besides, hopefully by the time someone has figured out a way of 'borrowing' M$ Vista, a version of Linux (similiar to Lindows) will be available for us all to use and we will no longer be held to ransom by M$ and their bullies.


That is all.

Tomas




vs4562f Sep 12, 2005, 04:49pm EDT Report Abuse
>> Re: Hm. I don't know about this one.
Lawrence,

This is not about 'integrity' - because it's not about stealing.

These idiots in the music industry think they own 'sound' and they want to charge us billions for it by overpricing it and maintaining a stranglehold on the industry.

Tough luck. I'll help myself to music forever, and there's not a damn thing GEEKS can do to stop me but wave their FAIRY FINGERS at me!

I own FREE MUSIC and I NEVER pay for it. You can all wave your fairy fingers at me all you want.

When I pay for music it will be to see it being played in front of me, the way it was supposed to be. End of story.

That is all.

Tomas

Riaan M Sep 13, 2005, 06:45am EDT Report Abuse
>> Re: Hm. I don't know about this one.
Tomas,

>>comparing murder to copying an MP3 is just laughable Riaan, and you're coming off as an even bigger
>> GEEK with each post.

I've dealt with this before. If your intellect is unable to grasp the connection then please refrain from commenting on it. Your ad hominem attack has immediately painted you as a fool.

>> The music and movie industries have been ripping off consumers for decades.

It's capitalism. The industry prices itself according to what the market will bear. The exact same thing happens with hamburgers, cars and computer equipment. Whether it's overpriced or not, is irrelevant. That's your personal perspective. People steal lots of music because it's not even remotely as hard or dangerous as stealing a car. It's the nature of the music commodity that makes it easy to steal.

>> If their overpriced dross wasn't exactly that, more and more people would be BUYING IT IN STORES
>> as opposed to 'borrowing' it.

Pure and utter sophistry. Even if the price was cut by a third, people would still steal music. The price is not the issue, it's the availablity of "FREE" illegal downloads that drives criminals like yourself. Why pay even $1 for a CD if you can get it for free? Like I said before, people like getting stuff for free. The price is irrelevant - you still have to go out and make an effort to acquire the merchandise - there's more to it than price alone.

>> I don't care about their 'profits' - if they spit in my face every time they tell me the price -
>> ften $20 for a CD - they can expect me to return the favour.

You see, that's what gets me: I cannot afford a Ferrari. I believe a Ferrari is overpriced. That's my opinion. Does that automatically entitle me to own one? Does it mean I can go and help myself to one in the parking lot?

NO, IT DOESN'T.

Any fool with half a brain will realise that. Your self-righteous proclamation of entitlement is directly comparable. People like you love to argue price and relative value - while they don't see that by using those arguments, they are arguing using capitalistic doctrine, and the hypocrisy in it is immense: Captalism means that if you cannot afford something, you are excluded from participation in its ownership. Very simple. The only ways to sidestep this principle is by the musician giving you the music, or alternativly through the illegal activity otherwise known as theft.

>> And BTW, XP suits me just fine, I don't need "Vista", and besides, hopefully by the time someone has
>> figured out a way of 'borrowing' M$ Vista, a version of Linux (similiar to Lindows) will be available for us
>> all to use and we will no longer be held to ransom by M$ and their bullies.

Once again, you encourage theft. You, sir, are a criminal and deserve to be dealt with by the judicial system.

>> That is all.

Quite evidently. Your powers of reasoning are patently lacking.

>> This is not about 'integrity' - because it's not about stealing.

It's not? Please qualify your statement.

>> These idiots in the music industry think they own 'sound' and they want to charge us billions for it by overpricing it and maintaining a stranglehold on the industry.

The value of the music lies not in its technical details, like how the physics of it works. The value lies in the experience it delivers to us as human beings, regardless of how it works. That is the value that is imbued into the music, and that is the value that is being charged for. If you don't like the price, then don't listen to it.

>>Tough luck. I'll help myself to music forever, and there's not a damn thing GEEKS can do to stop
>> me but wave their FAIRY FINGERS at me!

True. There isn't much I can do except shake my head in shame that such as you are part of my species. I can only wish that one day, if you ever grow up, you will gain some wisdom.

>> I own FREE MUSIC and I NEVER pay for it. You can all wave your fairy fingers at me all you want.

You do not own anything. Your illegal music owns you. That is the nature of feeble minded persons. Their trappings shape their pathetic lives.

>> When I pay for music it will be to see it being played in front of me, the way it was supposed to be.
>> End of story.

Musicians cannot be in every living room and on on every car stereo at everyone's beck and call. That should be obvious. That's the role of recorded music - it creates that presence for the musicians, and as such it's a proxy - and is therefore the same as having the musician in your living room. If you're prepared to pay for a live show then you should be prepared to pay for recorded music. I'm amazed that you are anable to grasp this simple concept.

In any event, I wonder if you would have the courage to go up on that live stage and shout out that you are a music thief...I doubt it. You're obviously a coward.

>> That is all.

Yes, we know. You make it very clear that your intellect is diminutive.

Thank you, Tomas. You have just been owned. Now go forth and sin no more.

Kind regards,
Riaan.



vs4562f Sep 16, 2005, 08:13am EDT Report Abuse
>> Re: Hm. I don't know about this one.
Riaan:

HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!!!!

1. Your pathetic attempts to sound intelligent simply make it obvious that you are TRYING and not CAPABLE of sounding intelligent.

Your use of poor grammar, misuse and inaapropriate use of words, in sentences where they do not fit are quite laughable, which leads me tow point number two:

2. Anyone who says makes such ridiculous statements - with pathetic and meaningless grammar - as "your intellect is diminutive" is not qualified to speak about another's intellect.

You have no 'intellect' Riaana. You are a fundamentalist GEEK. A christo-fascist who thinks he has the right to wag his finger at others and point out other people's 'sins'.

Listen five knuckle shuffle artist, you just 'owned' (more pathetic immature language from Rianna!) yourself with that ridiculous Uber-Geek post.

Now go forth and beat off to porn no more!

That is all.

Tomas
ps, I will happily email any artist and tell them I am downloading their music. I don't waste time and money going to live shows when I can listen to their music on my mp3 player or PC!

vs4562f Sep 16, 2005, 08:17am EDT Report Abuse
>> Re: Hm. I don't know about this one.
Hey Rianna,

BTW uber-geek, when you graduate high school, you may learn at some point in the future - although it is unlikely, since your IQ is clearly low - that over pricing a product is not 'capitalism'

You are nothing more than an geek and fundamentalist. I've dealt with the likes of you before.

You are seriously trying to compare murder with downloading sound! Now go back to your fundy church and sings your hymns.

Oh don't worry, we won't download those!!!

That is all

Tomas


johntmanic Sep 16, 2005, 09:09am EDT Report Abuse
>> Re: Hm. I don't know about this one.
Ive always thought about the downloading of music whether its right or wrong or not...
and i think its swings and roundabouts as the english saying goes.
Many a time ive downloaded a few songs from an artist and though hey this is alright and go out and buy their album... or any new stuff from artists ive downloaded and think its crap and i wont buy the album.
i saw an interview with my chemical romance on gonzo on mtv2 about people downloading their vids/songs for free and they think its a double edged sword where yeah its naughty etc but if people get to listen to their music and come to theyre gigs and possibly end up buying merchandise etc then they cant complain that much.
but i think its bad when people download mp3s to sell at car boots or markets and make money for themselves.... now thats wrong!

C2D E6600 627 B stepping
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vs4562f Sep 16, 2005, 10:27am EDT Report Abuse
>> Re: Hm. I don't know about this one.
Mark,

I think most people are the same. Personally most of the time I download a track, listen to it, and if I like it I go out and buy the album.

This has been going on for decades: In the past people simply TAPED IT FROM THE RADIO!

Only the medium for saving and sharing music has changed - from cassettes to digital format on a PC!

regards,

Tomas

vs4562f Sep 16, 2005, 10:29am EDT Report Abuse
>> Re: Hm. I don't know about this one.
Rianna,

A ferrari is not mere soundwaves - it is an actual physical entity. It cannot be reproduced for NOTHING by a computer millions of times over, the way music can be reproduced by a record company.

Only a fool like yourself, and a christo-fascist criminal like yourself would make such a pathetic argument.

God, you fundies are the bane of human existence!

Tomas

Jarret M. Sep 16, 2005, 12:01pm EDT Report Abuse
>> Re: Hm. I don't know about this one.
Just my 2 cents...

I think that comparing downlod'n music to murder is just plain wrong.. But comparing it to speeding might be more comparable. Most people who drive, speed from time to time. If they're caught be police, they're punished. Same thing, if your caught downloading and redistributing, your punished.

But the biggest difference, car makers aren't limiting your speed to 60m/h or 100km/h.. You can still go out and buy any new vehicle, and its going to let you go at speeds that kill thousands of people every year! So is that not worse, shouldn't car makers be limiting speed of their cars..... No! Same with operating systems, software, or hardware.... they shouldn't be limiting you because of what the law says!

My thoughts are, your never going to stop a person from speeding, same as your never going to stop pirates from pirating copyrighted material. Deal with it. Don't do it if you think its wrong, stop trying to impose your beliefs on other people. We have minds of our own and we think for ourselves.

vs4562f Sep 16, 2005, 12:06pm EDT Report Abuse
>> Re: Hm. I don't know about this one.
Jarret, a well written and rationale argument. Well spoken.



regards,

Tomas


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