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  Re: Slander Sander? A reply to ATI 
 
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Glen Johnson Sep 28, 2005, 06:52am EDT Report Abuse
>> Re: Re: Slander Sander? A reply to ATI
I use HWA as I assume most do to gain valuable insight into new products before you get them into your rig and realize you been Market Hyped!

When people tell me that they like gambling I say me too. I gamble everytime I buy an expensive piece of electronics (PC, audio/video, whatevah). I gamble that the specs listed on the side of the box are "honest" specs. That the specs are attained and maintained once in the working environment, that the specs hold for the length of the product (which is hopefully years more than the warranty). That is my gamble.

I was a Voodoo man since my Voodoo3 kept on keepin on for wAAAy longer than it should have. So when I upgraded I went to a NF4 Ti4200 I chose an Nvidia card mainly for the fact that they bought out Voodoo (my assumption of continued good performing products). I have never seriously considered an ATI product, although I read reviews etc, I buy Nvidia (never done me no wrong - why switch?).

Personally I think that after:

http://www.hardwareanalysis.com/content/search/results/article/1805/

Ati saw his "refusal" to attend the event (almost any reason/excuse should be accepted I mean come on!) as a continued snub that they could no longer ignore (I am speculating here) and decided that all the joking was now serious.

Also, though I am one of the types who believes that almost anything can be miscontrued and the more incentive (personal, financial, professional) someone has to miscontrue something, the more likely they are to do it and not even realise it.

Sander and all HWA, I like the info I get from here and hope it continues. Just a bit O' my ramblin.

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AZEEM Sep 29, 2005, 12:20pm EDT Report Abuse
>> Re: Re: Slander Sander? A reply to ATI
Sander thats very nice of u to provide us with these Details & If i were you & told to be banned for 6month for not attending Ati's Seminar & Previewing the Ati Drivers problems i would simply hire the Hacket & Hack the Ati Servers & Disclose all the Secret Info to the Public From my Site But u played your Cards Well :D & i gives u credit for that
& why would i Hack those secret Info is that i m a journalist & i have right to have that info & if the manager is denying that right to me then i would take their rights aswell (Tit for Tat)

PEACE! alright??
P4 630@Stock!
Intel i915GAV Mobo
Inno3D Geforce 6600le 256mb 4pipes
Kingston 512x2 PC3200 3-3-3-8
Seagate Barracuda 7200.7 SATA (8MB Buffer)
Just Be CoOl
:D Have Fun
Rude Boy Oct 05, 2005, 12:48am EDT Report Abuse
>> Re: Re: Slander Sander? A reply to ATI -- Your wife cuts you off or ATI does -- Tough Choice(he he)
Open Letter to Sander

1. You shouldn't turn down PR invitations due to anniversaries and then moan to everyone when you're bumped off the short list. You can't pick and choose what events you want to attend and then expect prefferential treatment. Hmm, let's see, your wife cuts you off for missing your anniversary or ATI does for missing a PR event.(can you appreciate that joke?) *wink*

It's a tough choice and you chose the un-professional decision of putting her before your career contacts that you spent years building. I can understand why even when it's the wrong choice. Snide emails and threats veiled as jokes won't solve things, nor will your e-mails apologizing and then demanding what you want, i.e. an R520 sample, with the implication that those are the terms for a truce. No, I do not have any affiliation with ATI, it's staff, or anyone directly or indirectly related to ATI. I was never a PR man nor will I be but it seemed clear to me that your comments were inflammatory at best and downright rude at worst. I think that it was unprofessional, smacks of egotism, and is often the disease of affluent professionals who have enjoyed success for a period of time.

I think that most people in the know will agree that you deserve the respect and success you have worked so hard for but throwing a tantrum will do nothing but alienate the other kids on the playground and the karma-nanny just taught you a lesson. Stop whining and learn from this experience.

2. The guy at ATI, whatever his/her name is shouldn't put his/her gripes on a forum dedicated to solving hardware issues and only pick certain quotes to reinforce his/her views. It is completely out of context and is a whining sessioon in its own right. If he/she respected your organization and had a good working relationship with you then he/she should appeal to your common sense and state his/her reasons clearly for his/her decision to cut you from the preferred list of players. I think he/she has genuine issues as to your caustic treatment of the situation and you know I'm right.

Both of you , spare me the B.S. and get back to what you do best, bringing new hardware to light for the rest of us.



P.S. I have enjoyed your articles in the past and learned alot about hardware trends. I respect the openess you have shown in disclosing your correspondence in this matter. Altough I criticized your approach to this issue I acknowledge your attempt at transparency and realize that you take risks in doing so. It shows an integrity that is rare in the world of journalism and was not diplayed by the other party inbvolved.

For this I will continue to be a contributing member and reader of HardwareAnalysis .com

Thanks for your time
Rude_Boy6969@Yahoo.com
__________________________________

EDITED FOR SPELLING AND GRAMMER

Mikkel Markussen Oct 06, 2005, 03:39am EDT Report Abuse
>> Re: Re: Slander Sander? A reply to ATI
Slander is spoken, libel is written. :)

I think this whole thing is mighty immature. Mr. Sassen did not recieve an invitation to the press benching event because of a very limited number of invites available, and after this he threw a tantrum, and waged a personal vendetta against ATi, as shown by the initial hostility in the article containing his entirely undocumented benchmarks. Regardless of whether or not these benchmarks were actually performed to those scores is irrelevant, as this sort of behaviour is entirely unprofessional. Some of you may think that ATi did not have valid reason to cut Mr. Sassen out of the loop, but ultimately it's the decision of ATi, and neither unfair nor disrespectful. Invitations to these events are a privilege, not a right, and definitely not something to be expected to the point where you do something like -this-. Poor form, Mr. Sassen. Regardless of ATis actions.

Jason Silverman Oct 06, 2005, 04:26am EDT Report Abuse
>> Re: Re: Slander Sander? A reply to ATI
Mikkel?

Poor form? Are you sure you've read his rebuttal fully? If so, you'd not be arriving at these conclusions. I'm sorry, but you come off as yet another fanboy with a grudge. I'd suggest next time you post you read up on the issue at hand, rather than jump to conclusions. Sander has been vindicated with the official benchmarks out, if you look at how this situation has developed Sander is the only one that kept open and honest. ATI made this into a soap opera by resorting to smear tactics. If you talk about poor form you should be directing that at ATI, not Sander.

---
Jason Silverman

Mikkel Markussen Oct 06, 2005, 05:52am EDT Report Abuse
>> Re: Re: Slander Sander? A reply to ATI
Yes, I've read the transcripts, which makes it quite hypocritical for you to say that -I- am the one jumping to conclusions. As for coming on as "yet another fanboy with a grudge", I'm puzzled as to how you percieve me as such. I have not defended ATi beyond stating the obvious logics of the case, and if that leaves you labeling me as a "fanboy with a grudge", then it leaves me with skepticism towards the validity of your stand on this from a general perspective. You do seem awfully bent on protecting Mr. Sassen's reputation and claims, so much so infact that you in your post stated that it would be impossible to arrive at anything other than percieving Mr. Sassen as a saint, which in my eyes fits the characteristics of the fanboyism which you accused me of.

In regards to the benchmarks, I have seen varying results, but none yet that resemble the scores posted by Mr. Sassen in the article in question.

To your comments towards the level of discussion, I must say that you in your post seemed to have completely avoided Mr. Sassen's own faults in this case, pinning everything on ATi. These smear tactics that you talk of were utilised by Mr. Sassen himself in making a malicious article describing part of the transcripts between him and ATi, and subsequently posting uncomfirmed benchmarks of a pre-production product, seemingly with the sole intent of getting back at ATi for not inviting him to the press benchmarking day. As the ATi community relations representative put it, he decided on these rules of engagement, and they followed suit. You're saying that ATi is turning this into a "soap opera", but is it really ATi who is to blame? If Mr. Sassen hadn't been disgruntled about not recieving an invite, and if he had respected that ultimately it is ATi's choice, then none of this would have happened. Who is in the wrong? That's subjective, of course. Who sparked this? A disgruntled internet journalist.

Sander Sassen Oct 06, 2005, 06:09am EDT Report Abuse
>> Re: Re: Slander Sander? A reply to ATI
Mikkel,

I think Jason meant to say that you fail to see the validity of my points and the one that's most disturbing, which is that ATI refuses to work with journalists that do not do their bidding. I for one refuse to be bullied by a manufacturer to write content which they deem appropriate. I'm here to inform the audience of new products and new technology and I will write as I see it. If you think that I'm wrong in my ways and should cuddle up with the manufacturers to reviece perks and early access then I suggest you join a fansite and indulge in their subjective reporting. That is what got me upset in the first place honestly, not being invited to a press briefing is only secondary and a result of my refusal to 'abide by their rules'. As I outline in my rebuttal (which by the looks of it you did not fully grasp) I don't care about being invited or not, I'd rather have a card and a driver disk than some PR event in some luxury hotel with all bells and whistles attached.

Regards,

Sander Sassen
Editor in Chief - Hardware Analysis
ssassen@hardwareanalysis.com
Mikkel Markussen Oct 06, 2005, 06:56am EDT Report Abuse
>> Re: Re: Slander Sander? A reply to ATI
I'm sorry Mr. Sassen, but you seem to have misinterpreted my post. I am not discussing who is right and who is wrong. What I'm discussing is how this case was handled. My view on this is irrelevant, but since I do not wish to be labled falsely as a fanboy again, I'll say that I find both parties to have dealt with the situation rather poorly. However, Mr. Bania was in a position where his company, and specifically his position was being targeted by outside press. This of course gives him every right to defend himself, and while he did so using the means that you yourself have, I find that he could have voiced himself slightly more professionally. What I cannot see a reason for, is why you decided to deliberately make malicious statements on your site after handing in threats to ATi. You claim to have been "bullied" by ATi, but did they really bully you? They have absolutely no influence on what you write, other than what you let them have, and I cannot see this supposed position of power and control that they have over you. I'm sorry, but not being included and informed by a company is hardly bullying.

I have seen quite a few articles putting ATi products in a less-than-flattering light, and the sites on which these articles have been written have continued to work with ATi. I have never seen any example of ATi cutting anyone off, simply because they wrote negative reviews of their products. It's evident that you feel cut out of the loop by ATi, but I still do not see the need for an intentionally malicious article based solely in speculation and unconfirmed rumours. I find it to be of poor form, and a suitable alternative to this could be to simply stop reviewing ATi products. Attacking them like you have is something that I consider unprofessional.

Sander Sassen Oct 06, 2005, 07:03am EDT Report Abuse
>> Re: Re: Slander Sander? A reply to ATI
Mikkel?

You keep repeating yourself and you DID not read my reply fully that much is clear. ATI indicated, and I have written proof of that in my rebuttal, that they will not work with press that blunty put 'doesn't do their bidding'. Furthermore you accuse me of lashing out at ATI, I did no such thing. The article wasn't written to smear ATI, I simply mentioned why I was forced to post scores ahead of anyone that did sign an NDA. I provided a disclaimer to the scores and made sure I protected my source, who now turned out to have provided me with scores that are in line with actual performance. There's some glaring errors in your line of reasoning when you conclude I played the game by the same smear tactics as they have, as I haven't. I did not disclose personal emails, lied to the public nor have I twisted facts around. If you don't see that ATI is the one that did, then I'm sorry but that's just the way it is. Just don't expect me to post here again in reply to your posts.

Regards,

Sander Sassen
Editor in Chief - Hardware Analysis
ssassen@hardwareanalysis.com
guru Shane Oct 06, 2005, 07:07am EDT Report Abuse
>> Re: Re: Slander Sander? A reply to ATI
"They have absolutely no influence on what you write, other than what you let them have, and I cannot see this supposed position of power and control that they have over you. I'm sorry, but not being included and informed by a company is hardly bullying."

They are trying to bully him. As I see it, it is ATI's way or else you are cut off. He couldn't attend a press conference due to private matters, and that resulted in him being cut off on later events. I find that rude and unprofessional. It is if they expect everyone to stop leading a personal life so the world can revolve around ATI. Sorry, but I don't think that's right. That is something that a bully would do, and I find it extremely arrogant that a corporation would think that they can control you, even when it comes to your personal life.

Some things may have been written in anger by Sander, but that was a result of the bullying and the mistreatment that ATI was trying to hand him. In actuality, it appears that the benchmarks that he published were realistic and the only thing bad about the article was perhaps a possible tone that could be perceived while reading it.

guru Shane Oct 06, 2005, 07:16am EDT Report Abuse
>> Re: Re: Slander Sander? A reply to ATI
"Slander is spoken, libel is written."

Are you trying to correct the word that Sander chose for his article? In case you haven't noticed IDIOT, everyone is speaking about it. If you think this mess is limited to being written, then you aren't currently up-to-date on technology. There are these things called cell phones, for instance. You dial the number and you "speak" into it...

Perhaps I shouldn't blast you back into the dark ages, but I find your arrogance a good target for my superior intelligence. ;) If you mess with my friends, you are messing with me. Frankly, I don't think you are up to the challenge.

[Edit]
Let me change this slightly. Sander and I aren't friends on a personal level, but Sander is someone that I respect. I would like to think that we are friends, but we don't know each other personally. However, by the same token, if you mess with someone I respect, then you are going to have to deal with me.
[/Edit]

Mikkel Markussen Oct 06, 2005, 07:23am EDT Report Abuse
>> Re: Re: Slander Sander? A reply to ATI
Mr. Sassen, you continue to completely disregard what I'm saying, and I have very little tolerance of this. I came into this with no intention of discussing this with you, and I am certainly not going to waste my time explaining my perception of the situation to someone who will categorically deny it. I laid out my observations and my reasoning, and explained my completely subjective view on things. As you fail to realise this, I have no intention of continuing to explain it to deaf ears. Hence, I will end this discussion.


Blue, the problem in that is that ATi is an international, market leading company, and if Mr. Sassen is too preoccupied to cover their products, then I can assure you that there are another hundred journalists waiting for the chance. Naturally, ATi is interested in getting as much coverage as possible, whether positive or negative, and if Mr. Sassen cannot deliver, then they will obviously turn to other journalists.

Edit: Blue, when wording a written response to a written claim, it is called libel, no matter how many people are discussing the case in private. This being completely irrelevant to the discussion at hand, I would now address the rest of your post, but it seems that all it contains are unwarranted and unprovoked personal attacks. If you cannot keep this at least somewhat on topic, then I cannot reply to any more of your posts.

Dublin_Gunner Oct 06, 2005, 07:30am EDT Report Abuse
>> Re: Re: Slander Sander? A reply to ATI
And first off, I would have to agree with Sander that an anniversary with his girlfriend is a bloody hell of a lot more important than some PR event for a paper launched product, or any PR event for that matter.

It appears that you would not know too much about personal relationships, and I fear you would undoubtedly find it difficult to partake in one, or make one last for any period of time.

As Sander said, you obviously have not read the rebuttal fully, or indeed understood it. this is all merely politics here, plain and simple.

ATI, if they want good publicity, should release good products, on time, and stop lying about things. They seem to be going about business the wrong way of late, and it has proven to be severely detrimental to their reputation.

Now I feel this topic has been discussed long enough, Sander mad his rebuttal, and has now been vindicated. The facts prove it for themselves and everyone involved.

The jury has decided.

CASE CLOSED

Lancool PC K62
Phenom II x3 @ 3.5Ghz
4GB DDR2-800
ASUS GTX570 DirectCU II
Mikkel Markussen Oct 06, 2005, 07:34am EDT Report Abuse
>> Re: Re: Slander Sander? A reply to ATI

guru Shane Oct 06, 2005, 07:51am EDT Report Abuse
>> Re: Re: Slander Sander? A reply to ATI
Just to further the argument, I know what libel is. So, in your great wisdom..., when you are writing about slander, do you still change the word to libel? I was under the impression that when writing about libel, you would use the word libel, and when writing about slander, you would use the word slander. But, nice attempt... ;)

guru Shane Oct 06, 2005, 07:54am EDT Report Abuse
>> Re: Re: Slander Sander? A reply to ATI
"Mr. Sassen, you continue to completely disregard what I'm saying, and I have very little tolerance of this."

Mikkuel, you skipped my first post, (above the slander/libel post), so how tolerant should I be of you picking and choosing what you want to read? If you are too lazy to read it all, then sit down and shut up while the grown folks talk. ;)

Dublin_Gunner Oct 06, 2005, 07:57am EDT Report Abuse
>> Re: Re: Slander Sander? A reply to ATI
I made no personal attack. I was merely pointing that maybe you (just as an example) may not be able to comprehend a personal relationship, as obviously ATI's PR guys must not, and as a result made a judgement that Sander was snubbing their invitation, whereas he had a perfectly good reason (for most humans anyway) for not attending.

If you took this as a personal attack, I must apologise, that is not how it was meant.

But once again, can this topic please be concluded now, justice has been done and the truth is out for all to see.

Discussing this further can be in no way constructive.

Lancool PC K62
Phenom II x3 @ 3.5Ghz
4GB DDR2-800
ASUS GTX570 DirectCU II
Mikkel Markussen Oct 06, 2005, 08:11am EDT Report Abuse
>> Re: Re: Slander Sander? A reply to ATI
Blue, I am afraid that you're wrong in your observations. This case has proceeded in written form all along, and while I am aware that Mr. Sassen has been on the phone with ATi representatives, it does not change that the threats, the article in question, and the subsequent reply by Mr. Bania were all in written form, hence making it libelous, not slanderous. I do not know why you insist on pursuing something this trivial, but I suppose it's harmless.

If you proceeded to re-read my post, you will find that I had replied to both the libel/slander post, and the one above it, so perhaps you should take your own advice, or "let the grown folks talk", as you so eloquently put it.

DublinGunner, what I took as a personal attack was "It appears that you would not know too much about personal relationships, and I fear you would undoubtedly find it difficult to partake in one, or make one last for any period of time." Now, if you meant nothing of it, then there will be no hard feelings. I agree that this discussion is somewhat exhausted, but I will continue to reply to posts addressed to me, if they pertain at least some level of relevancy.

Dublin_Gunner Oct 06, 2005, 08:27am EDT Report Abuse
>> Re: Re: Slander Sander? A reply to ATI
I should have used 'someone' in place of 'you', apologies for the misunderstanding.

Lancool PC K62
Phenom II x3 @ 3.5Ghz
4GB DDR2-800
ASUS GTX570 DirectCU II
guru Shane Oct 06, 2005, 08:28am EDT Report Abuse
>> Re: Re: Slander Sander? A reply to ATI
"you will find that I had replied to both the libel/slander post, and the one above it,"

I'm not seeing any response to the bullying that I explained so well, which was what the post above it was talking about. I see you making a comment and responding to my libel/slander post. :)

Anyway, like I said, when writing about libel, you use the word libel. When writing about slander, you use the word slander. Take one guess as to which he was referring to. If you weren't trying to be a smartass, you wouldn't find yourself debating such an irrelevant topic WHICH YOU STARTED... Duh...

When you come to my table, you had better come correct. I am not going to tolerate kids harassing people for no apparent reason, especially when they aren't reading all of the facts and ignoring facts that they do read.


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