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  Re: Vista driver woes, update or upgrade? 
 
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Darren Reynolds Mar 10, 2007, 10:26am EST Report Abuse
>> Re: Re: Vista driver woes, update or upgrade?
Blaming the harware manufaturers instead of Microsoft ... how cowardly of you.

Did one of Bill's boys ring and tell you he wasn't happy about the last two articles?

Is your poor relationship with NVidia and other hardware manufacturers the real issue here ... or are you just sitting on the fence firing shots in every direction and trying to just stir the pot?

Who scares you more?

Hmm ?

Creative, NVidia, and a few of the others probably won't be sending you much to review with this sort of attitude.

Maybe you should just try a more balanced approach and tell the facts with out the judgemental bull ... we don't need it.

Check out Anandtech for some tips on how to run a decent site.

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phil Mar 10, 2007, 11:27am EST Report Abuse
>> Re: Re: Vista driver woes, update or upgrade?
Darren Reynolds said:
Blaming the hardware manufacturers instead of Microsoft ... how cowardly of you.

Did one of Bill's boys ring and tell you he wasn't happy about the last two articles?

Is your poor relationship with Nvidia and other hardware manufacturers the real issue here ... or are you just sitting on the fence firing shots in every direction and trying to just stir the pot?

Who scares you more?

Hmm ?

Creative, Nvidia, and a few of the others probably won't be sending you much to review with this sort of attitude.

Maybe you should just try a more balanced approach and tell the facts with out the judgmental bull ... we don't need it.

Check out Anandtech for some tips on how to run a decent site.


Did it say anywhere on any of the products in your computer that Microsoft will be responsible to make sure i t works with all future OS's?
.. nope i bet i said "works with ME,2000, XP" .. so you bought a product that works with those OS's .. I've got news for you, it's not M$'s or the Manufacturers RESPONSIBILITY to make sure your OLD product will function at all with vista... they can sit, do nothing and make you buy all new hardware.. but for some reason, M$ was nice enough to include many drivers in their OS to stop you from having to do that. Of course they cant possibly include all drivers and it would be down right silly to include drivers that would never be replaced like SB live drivers, as Creative's usual course of action is to include a driver/software package allowing you to add effects and customise your listening experience.

UNFORTUNATELY, some companies are forcing you to buy new hardware, and YUP it's within their rights to do so.. and if you choose to buy another of their products, well that's your own fault for supporting them, and if you sit on your ass and don't even tell them (not us) how displeased you are,, well then you're just an idiot... it's that simple. however good luck with trying to phone up Microsoft to get a working driver for your SB Live.. and now that you think about it. I'm sure it doesn't make any sense does it... of course not... so am i accusing you of doing such a thing,, nope i never said that.. I'm just saying it makes perfect sense for sander, me, crashburnxp, and many other members of our and other forums to blame the manufacturers for poor customer support, it's not their jobs to support vista on any product that didn't come with a "supports vista sticker", but it sure is nice when or if they do.

If any manufacturer wants to hold out or be prejudice in their business choices, and picking review sites to send samples to.. well ok that's good for them, what would you say to a grocery store that told you "you're not welcome here, you told so-and-so we had a rude cashier.. and now you're band from our store for life" .. well I'd tell them to f**k off. some of use show loyalty to a certain company regardless and that's fine with me, some of us are only loyal to performance and buy products accordingly, some are loyal to our wallets or purchase particular products that we need.. personally, I'm a performance nut and spend more money on things i don't need than 99% of everyone on the internet, and as a result i probably have more spare hardware lying around than Anandtech and Toms put together.. BUT i will hold out on a company if they don't deserve my business.. what standards i set for them is my business, just as yours should be your own.

as for anandtech being 'a better website and an example for all to follow' .. lmao.. OK sure.. i will admit, i do read the articles there, but i don't believe everything i read.. sometimes i can't help but laugh at the Hype and BS that comes out of that site, toms, hexus, the inquirer (especially), xbit labs, etc... believe what you want to believe, this isn't North Korea, but at least TRY to be educated about it.

---
can't access HWA unless I use a proxy... lol

pfft ..f**k that! (almost sounds like work)
John Lewis Mar 10, 2007, 07:12pm EST Report Abuse
>> Re: Re: Vista driver woes, update or upgrade?

John Lewis Mar 10, 2007, 07:30pm EST Report Abuse
>> Re: Re: Vista driver woes, update or upgrade?
Lay the rotting body at Microsoft's door. Their support for 3rd-party developers with Vista has been pathetic. Plus they decided to break every driver to OS interface model that they had. Vista desperately needs a full XP-backward-compatible mode if Microsoft ever hopes to get any market penetration in the near-terrm. Many of those who have happily bought new Vista-equipped computers will be less than happy when they find that major applications have major problems under Vista if they have bought the application without first carefully checking that Vista is listed under "System Requirements" No return for credit of opened software here in the US......

I have had Vista Ultimate installed for over a month and dual-booting with XP. Have been testing compatibility primarily with video processing hardware/software, major ( non-virus-killer) utilities and some miscellaneous applications. Here is a short excerpt of my findings:-

Other than office applications, very few third-party developers have verified or upgraded their software (or hardware drivers) for Vista. Take a look at the Adobe Vista FAQ, for example. And if you have an older copy of an Adobe program -- say Premiere Pro 1.5 instead of the latest V2.0 (which has not yet been updated) you will be PERMANENTLY out of luck with Vista. At present, both versions of the program malfunction with Vista and PP2.0 does not yet have a firm schedule for a Vista update. As for professional PC-based 3rd-party hardware in the same technology area, there are few if any updates to their drivers for Vista. Matrox for example have NONE and none scheduled either, and in their forums warn current and prospective customers to avoid Vista. Seems as if Microsoft has done very little to actively encourage 3rd parties to move to Vista. Important utilities such as Ghost10 or Partition Magic have not yet been updated for Vista, and in the case of Partition Magic there is no proposed schedule whatsoever. And BUYER/USER BEWARE utilities that rumor/forum/customer-support claim to be Vista compatible, but do not have Vista listed in the System Requirements !!!

Plus, the most telling aspect of the situation will be obvious if you inspect the System Requirements for Office 2007... no mention of Windows Vista AT ALL. Seems as if Vista must have been in such a state of flux that the MS Office folk did not have a stable version of Vista for testing their product before they had to go to print on the Office 2007 package. I'm sure Microsoft will patch any Office2007 anomalies with Vista should they arise, but I still found the situation rather revealing and hilarious.

To me there seems to be a strong parallel betwen WinMe and Vista-- the fill-in pretender rushed into the market while waiting for the real OS upgrade. Except that Vista is a lot less backward-compatible than WinMe ever was.

So, buyer beware if you only have Vista on your PC and purchase new software ( or hardware). Better check those System Requirements listed on the software package before breaking the seal. If Vista is not listed and some function in that software works on XP but does not work on Vista... hard luck, no refund on opened software packages.. at least here in the US.

On games, besides general incompatibilities with video and audio drivers, you may also find that disc copy-protection such as Securerom will crash on Vista, especially on older/budget titles. Oh, well there is always Gamecopy.com......Or it seems as if dual-boot (or sticking with XP) is in the long-term future for the dedicated gamer with a large legacy collection.

SWAT_Mellonman Mar 11, 2007, 06:21am EDT Report Abuse
>> Re: Re: Vista driver woes, update or upgrade?
Why does everyone blame Microsoft for the lack of drivers that these 3rd party companies have refused to supply to the consumer? They had the code for Vista long before public release and it was they who chose not to give the support to us not Microsoft. I think Microsoft has sufficiently done their part by supplying a number of drivers to support all that the 3rd party vendors to supplied them. It is not Microsoft's job to give driver support to 3rd party hardware. It is the responsibility of the hardware maker to provide compatible drivers to the OS.

[img]http://swatgaming.com/images/melsig.jpg[/img]
angryhippy Mar 11, 2007, 08:57am EDT Report Abuse
>> Re: Re: Vista driver woes, update or upgrade?
And for just how long did they have the code? I think there is more than one party here at fault, if you want to call it fault. From listening to the security vendors, the code wasn't very forthcoming from MS. And if anything they should have been on board early. The fact that MS's security suite just came dead last in a review of all the top security suites, would say they blew it for their own profit. Another case of MS's need for world domination causing them to trip and fall on their face.

Plus I still think that unlike with the release of XP, a lot of vendors have just taken a wait and see attitude about how Vista will work out before dedicating the time and money to develop new drivers, or Vista ready products for that matter. I mean there wasn't a whole lot of wowwwing and ahhhhing when the release candidates and betas got out there to be seen. And aside from die-hard eye candy freaks, there still isn't. I'm in agreement with the earlier poster who said it was looking a lot like the horror film "OS Part 2 The Return Of ME, Spawn Of Satan!"

Get Hippied out!
http://www.angryhippy.net
Me at work: http://tinyurl.com/3nvncb3
My rig! A Blah blah.With a blah blah! SWEET! http://tinyurl.com/4yujmff
Da Beast! http://tinyurl.com/3sapr2b
i5 3570K 4.6GHz http://snipurl.com/26r3cot
Win7-8 Pro 64bit
angryhippy Mar 11, 2007, 09:16pm EDT Report Abuse
>> Re: Re: Vista driver woes, update or upgrade?
Compatibility problems tend to smooth out over time. Twenty thousand device drivers were available when Vista was released, and more are coming out at a rate of 1,600 per month. "We believe about 90% of devices are covered today," says Boettcher.

More than 7,000 applications have received Microsoft's "Works With Vista" designation, but only 1,000 have been "certified" for Vista, a more rigorous process that ensures the highest level of compatibility. Even Microsoft has to prioritize which of its applications get Vista certification first, Boettcher says.
From a March 12th article in InformationWeek. To read the entire article titled Windows Vista's 90-Day Report Card go to:http://snipurl.com/1cpnl I don't agree nor disagree with the article. I don't have enough first hand knowledge to do so. And I'm not posting this as a comment, only as an additional source relevant to the thread, for your consideration.

Get Hippied out!
http://www.angryhippy.net
Me at work: http://tinyurl.com/3nvncb3
My rig! A Blah blah.With a blah blah! SWEET! http://tinyurl.com/4yujmff
Da Beast! http://tinyurl.com/3sapr2b
i5 3570K 4.6GHz http://snipurl.com/26r3cot
Win7-8 Pro 64bit
CrAsHnBuRnXp Mar 11, 2007, 11:38pm EDT Report Abuse
>> Re: Re: Vista driver woes, update or upgrade?
SWAT_Mellonman said:
Why does everyone blame Microsoft for the lack of drivers that these 3rd party companies have refused to supply to the consumer? They had the code for Vista long before public release and it was they who chose not to give the support to us not Microsoft. I think Microsoft has sufficiently done their part by supplying a number of drivers to support all that the 3rd party vendors to supplied them. It is not Microsoft's job to give driver support to 3rd party hardware. It is the responsibility of the hardware maker to provide compatible drivers to the OS.

I keep asking myself the same question. Read this thread: http://www.hardwareanalysis.com/content/topic/65655/

Quite interesting.

Harry Mar 12, 2007, 12:54am EDT Report Abuse
>> Re: Vista driver woes, update or upgrade? Forced upgrades!
Hi: There is a very good reason Microsoft takes the blame; it is because Microsoft usually causes the problem.

As I understand it they totally changed the way the interface works for devices (which I take it to mean no older driver will work in Vista). Why? What benefits other than the smoke and mirrors of changing things for a "new" thing or look do we, the end user, get Why did they junk the old system which seemed work well to me.

Are we going back to plug'n'pray? And how many times since XP (Longhorn, etc.) has the interface design been junked and started over. How could anyone keep up.

They should have left early Vista totally backwards compatible with the old style I/O. but let programs signifying the right new style drivers/ or codecs/ use the new method. Microsoft's arrogant attitude is that you will do it there way, after all they are god, right?

More of the "force" that you will buy new stuff all around. Whether you want to or not. Sure, software people should now get on the ball; but, who is to say that Vista Beta 2 won't change things all around again.

And, this is not only true of Vista. I bought a scanner I had wanted on a good sale; big XP compatible sticker on the front of the box. Yes, it was compatible, if you paid them $15 more for new software for the scanner interface. Ha -ha, I got screwed there. I never paid them either, the store would not let me bring it back. Well, that company that built the scanner and advertised it as compatible will never, ever get another dollar out of me. And the business I bought it from is close, convenient and cheap; but, they too will now loose my purchases to another company down the road. I vote the only way possible in this day and age -- with my feet and wallet closed. For this to ever have a chance of being correct you also have to let the offender know it. Both the scanner outfit and the 'office supply store' have since apologized to me (after I went over the locals heads to the top). But, still they are not forgiven, screw 'em.

Now, it's hard to go over Microsoft's head; but I am staying with XP (as long as I can) and I have let them know that.

Harry

Ed Burnett Mar 12, 2007, 01:28am EDT Report Abuse
>> Re: Re: Vista driver woes, update or upgrade?
Very interesting to read all the different perspectives. I guess we'll see similar results in 2008. HaHa.
Whatever...IMHO...what good is a new OS if there's no driver support? It would be like GM or Ford selling a new car that used a different fuel that you couldn't buy in any gas station. Or that used a new lubricating oil that you couldn't buy anywhere. A system architecture includes whatever it takes to make everything work. And you don't sell it where users think they are getting one thing and wind up with something else instead.

angryhippy Mar 12, 2007, 01:48am EDT Report Abuse
>> Re: Re: Vista driver woes, update or upgrade?
Or that used a new lubricating oil that you couldn't buy anywhere.


Sounds like the Enzo Ferrari
The money doesn't stop flowing once the Enzo is in your garage, either. According to a 2003 Car and Driver article, replacing the brake pads costs $6,000, and the carbon-ceramic brake rotors go for $24,000. A special oil must be used (or else Ferrari will consider the warranty void) -- the oil costs $60 a quart.

Get Hippied out!
http://www.angryhippy.net
Me at work: http://tinyurl.com/3nvncb3
My rig! A Blah blah.With a blah blah! SWEET! http://tinyurl.com/4yujmff
Da Beast! http://tinyurl.com/3sapr2b
i5 3570K 4.6GHz http://snipurl.com/26r3cot
Win7-8 Pro 64bit
phil Mar 12, 2007, 04:26am EDT Report Abuse
>> Re: Re: Vista driver woes, update or upgrade?
Harry Porter said:
Hi: There is a very good reason Microsoft takes the blame; it is because Microsoft usually causes the problem.

As I understand it they totally changed the way the interface works for devices (which I take it to mean no older driver will work in Vista). Why? What benefits other than the smoke and mirrors of changing things for a "new" thing or look do we, the end user, get Why did they junk the old system which seemed work well to me.

They should have left early Vista totally backwards compatible with the old style I/O. but let programs signifying the right new style drivers/ or codecs/ use the new method. Microsoft's arrogant attitude is that you will do it there way, after all they are god, right?

Now, it's hard to go over Microsoft's head; but I am staying with XP (as long as I can) and I have let them know that.

Harry


good you stay with XP, microsoft will support you well into the future (that's offly nice of them too), I love how you can knock vista apart for doing this different though.. as it is a NEW operating system... if it didn't do things different it would just be XP SP3 .. you want vista to be xp, good i see that the smart thing for you is to stay with xp... but for those of us who payed many hundreds of dollars for vista, we did it for a reason! it's different, it's not just a xp update, and the improvement will eventually come when hardware manufactures get off their ass, ... as with every new product: some people have to bite the bullet so that everyone else can rejoice in the aftermath. Unfortunately microsoft saw that time as beta testing, and everyone else sees it as pre sp1 release.. those manufactures will not be getting anymore of my money. (and my pockets are pretty deep)

---
can't access HWA unless I use a proxy... lol

pfft ..f**k that! (almost sounds like work)
Harry Mar 12, 2007, 03:38pm EDT Report Abuse
>> Re: Re: Vista driver woes, update or upgrade?
Well, actually it is easy to knock Vista based on the complaints I've heard. The real point here is how you define the word "improvement". I agree with you, maybe it will come one day no matter how you define it. I define it as something better than the previous item (in computers as i.e. - faster, slimmer, less of a resource hog, etc.). So far you are defining it as just something different, something new. I just don't define the word that way.

Of course auto makers like your way of defining it too. It keeps the sales snowball rolling.

I like the stability of my XP; but, It is quite slower at some tasks than 98 was. Does buying more and more memory, bigger and faster hard drives; and, coming out with about the same processing speeds mean things have improved? In the work I do, which is mostly digitizing video and editing video on a semi-professional basis, my "improvement" has come through improved processor speeds not improvement in the O/S. I view things like 'dual-core' as improvements (that might be what drags me into VISTA maybe). Then again, I am considering a dedicated work station for this area.

Yes, those first in often pay to do the debugging (whereas Microsoft should pay you) by buying early. Some of my questions concerning Microsoft's abilities are that they can spend so much time, so much effort, so much money and have so little "improvement" by my definition. By your definition, anything new they announce, working or not, is an improvement. But, I think the way Microsoft goes about this reflects the way Bill Gates goes about things in general. I just don't think new graphics are necessarily translated into, or as, "improvement"; but, I guess many people do think just that.

I am not knocking your outlook as, after all, I joined this site to learn things and to see what others were saying/doing with VISTA as well as other topics. I realize you are here to 'help' in your own manner. I am just not jumping on the bandwagon yet; I want the improvement there not just the smoke and mirrors of new graphics.

As we speak, I am downloading the patch to allow my old, but expensive Office XP to read the new ".docx" word format. Is ".docx" an improvement or simply something new. It promises to save space and appears to be a simple compression of the normal ".doc". But so far, in 15 years of PCs my documents have never run me out of space. Video has, but not documents. And, I have yet to get a ".docx" from anyone; but, I know that will come. Improvement, or just something different? Personally, I think it takes far too long (although only a few seconds) to open Word anyway. I'll get someone to send me the new one and see if a stopwatch finds anything different.

Again, keep up the good work; but, don't always assume your outlook is "the" correct one and that everyone should toe the line. I don't hate Windows per se as it has allowed almost everyone of every skill level to own, operate, and actually use a computer for something useful in their home; but, I do not like the way Microsoft operates in the marketplace. I might also note on a different machine I have installed another Linux variant. The day I find one that can run my Photoshop program and a few other necessary tools without screwing up is the day I will probably switch over, or run both operating systems.

Harry

Harry Mar 12, 2007, 03:47pm EDT Report Abuse
>> Re: Re: Vista driver woes, update or upgrade?
Hi again: I might add one last thing here. XP, SP3 would be a good thing; I would not mind seeing that. By now most of the major kinks in XP are gone; mostly only security issues are left. There have been several 100 security patches since SP2. I have never had a permanent XP crash; however, I did have a hard drive failure, very unexpected, which required a full reload of XP and installing all patches since SP2 again. That took forever.

Harry

CrAsHnBuRnXp Mar 12, 2007, 03:47pm EDT Report Abuse
>> Re: Re: Vista driver woes, update or upgrade?
Harry,

Have you even tried Vista at ALL?

CrAsHnBuRnXp Mar 12, 2007, 03:51pm EDT Report Abuse
>> Re: Re: Vista driver woes, update or upgrade?
Harry Porter said:
Hi again: I might add one last thing here. XP, SP3 would be a good thing; I would not mind seeing that. By now most of the major kinks in XP are gone; mostly only security issues are left. There have been several 100 security patches since SP2. I have never had a permanent XP crash; however, I did have a hard drive failure, very unexpected, which required a full reload of XP and installing all patches since SP2 again. That took forever.

Harry

They would take forever if you have dialup. I have broadband and 70+ patches to get AFTER SP2. It only takes me like 5 minutes to get. 10 at the most.

Im not saying XP SP3 would be a bad thing either. It would be nice to have. But like you said, the only thing good for it would be to implement ALL the hotfixes together. You might as well just go to http://www.autopatcher.com and download nLite and make a customizable XP CD like I am doing right now.

Ed Burnett Mar 12, 2007, 10:32pm EDT Report Abuse
>> Re: Re: Vista driver woes, update or upgrade?
I like my XP SP2. Although I do have one more shot at MS. I've turned off automatic update because recently some of their updates are trash. They have messed up my PC whereby I had to keep going back in Restore dates until it would work right again. I get their tech letter and there are numerous thank yous from MS to gurus who have found problems and identified them to MS. Personally, I don't have the time to send them e-mails on things they should be doing right.

Harry Mar 15, 2007, 01:32pm EDT Report Abuse
>> Re: Re: Vista driver woes, update or upgrade?
Hi: Went to autopatcher.com that you mentioned and downloaded their stuff. This sounded like a good idea. Did not see anything called "nLite". Do I need this? Site details make the autopatcher files seem all you need.

I have been afraid to load Vista beta whatever (and I'm certainly not buying it); but, my bad experiences came from trying to help my neighbor fix his bug ridden upgrade to Vista. He is back to XP now as he can't afford to be always having something fail or always repairing things. Sure, someday, it will work; but, why should the public pay millions and billions to debug it for Microsoft.

I think after the announcements from Longhorn forward and the delays and the failures that Microsoft felt pressure to release something. I think they should have spent more development time first.

Harry

Dublin_Gunner Mar 15, 2007, 01:44pm EDT Report Abuse
>> Re: Re: Vista driver woes, update or upgrade?
Strange.

I tried some of the betas and RC's. THey were fine, few bugs, naturally.

I now use Vista Home Premium 32bit, and have had little problems with it. No crashes, random reboots, blue screens, no driver issues, game issues or software issues.

I'm either lucky, or happen to know what I'm doing.

Only problem I had was drivers for my soundcard (which Creative decided not to support anymore), but I found a third party driver which works flwlessly for me, so now, I have 0 problems with Vista.

Sure, it eats up a little more ram, but I'm certain going to XP for the first time was more problematic.

Lancool PC K62
Phenom II x3 @ 3.5Ghz
4GB DDR2-800
ASUS GTX570 DirectCU II
Ed Burnett Mar 15, 2007, 01:45pm EDT Report Abuse
>> Re: Re: Vista driver woes, update or upgrade?
I'm still amazed by some of the responses.
When a company like Microsoft or any other company of its size that in essence controls a market...they have an additional level of corporate responsibility with regard to their products. It's different if you screw up one or two customers...but when there is a base as large as MS Windows...anything they do wrong messes a lot of people up. Additionally, today more people rely on their systems for stability and performance. They aren't using their PC's for games like Solitaire...they have their finances like checking and on-line payments and other personal things, etc. which when screwed up...screws their everyday lives up as well. Now if their products were free it might be a different thing...but they are not. And now with authentication...more personal time is taken to authenticate their software. So, whatever soft comments are made about MS having no responsibility for producing a clean OS...I'm still coming down hard on them.
Ed


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