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  Re: DirectX 10, no longer a Vista exclusive? 
 
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Merc Mar 16, 2007, 09:34am EDT Report Abuse
>> Re: Re: DirectX 10, no longer a Vista exclusive?
I think that the bottleneck everyone mentions when upgrading to an 8800GTX will become largely irrelevant. Just a guess, of course, but owning one of these cards is an eye opener. It is such a huge leap form the best of the last generation that it would be almost silly from business perspective to make such a card in todays market unless that huge performance improvement was required for something.

This 8800GTS (which overclocks like a banshee to 675/1.9 on water) scores 10,779 in 3D06. Any game I play on it doesn't even heat it up, it just blows through it (of course my monitor is is only 1280x1024 native) like nothing even at stock settings. The GTX is even more awesome.

I am betting that this will change when DX10 games hit the market and this GPU is actually pushed by the demands DX10 will put on it. I really can't see Nvidia producing this great of a leap in one generation for nothing as half the performance increase would have gotten a 10/10 on most reviews.

Merc
Modified Lian Li PC 7077A
Dual Watercooling Loops
Asus P5K Deluxe BIOS 0404
Core 2 Duo Q6600 (3600MHz@1.46v)
Max OC 4050MhHz at 1.65v
1 x XFX 8800GTX XXX Watercooled
2 GB Team Xtreme DDR2 800-PC6400
2 x 150gb WD in Raptors in RAID 0
1 x 640
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Dublin_Gunner Mar 16, 2007, 09:52am EDT Report Abuse
>> Re: Re: DirectX 10, no longer a Vista exclusive?
Brendan, technically, you're correct. Because the work is offload from the CPU to the GPU, the CPU has much less to do.

Therefore, we should see lower end and high end CPU's performing near identical in DX10 apps.

Of course, thats the idea, the reality may be completely different!

The counter-problem is though, the shiny new 8800gtx is super fast in DX9 apps, but it will be a snail in DX10................................................(as it has a LOT more work to do)

Lancool PC K62
Phenom II x3 @ 3.5Ghz
4GB DDR2-800
ASUS GTX570 DirectCU II
Merc Mar 16, 2007, 10:08am EDT Report Abuse
>> Re: Re: DirectX 10, no longer a Vista exclusive?
Well, I hope it isn't a slowed to a snail's pace Dublin but I have to agree with you. If the GTX is slowed down substantially then my GTS will be hit even harder. I can only say that this is why I like SLI so much. When this incredible GTS starts getting too slow I can get a second at a reduced price, plug it in and be good for another year and a half at least.

With SLI I can run on a nearly three year cycle with my vid cards thus justifying the cost. I never spend more than $375 on a card and I run them for almost three years. This GTS cost $360 used and I'll probably be able to get the second, when I need it, for around $250 used, in a year. A little over $600 for three years of excellent performance.

At least it worked for my 6800GTs and I was able to skip the entire 7 series while still being able to play most games at very high levels. HDR and some other new technologies would bring them to their knees, though, even when heavily overclocked, so it was time to upgrade. With this new build I completely upgraded and am ready for the next few years.

In 2.5-3.0 years I expect two 8800GTS in SLI won't be able to keep up with the latest offering and won't be able to play the latest titles so i'll have to look at the 10,000GT. ;)

One thing is that I think that leftover CPU power will be put to good use with advanced AI, greater game play and maybe physics (although my boartd has a third PCIe 16xslot for that) so I don'tthink you'll be any better off in that respect as you are today.

Merc
Modified Lian Li PC 7077A
Dual Watercooling Loops
Asus P5K Deluxe BIOS 0404
Core 2 Duo Q6600 (3600MHz@1.46v)
Max OC 4050MhHz at 1.65v
1 x XFX 8800GTX XXX Watercooled
2 GB Team Xtreme DDR2 800-PC6400
2 x 150gb WD in Raptors in RAID 0
1 x 640
Dublin_Gunner Mar 16, 2007, 10:25am EDT Report Abuse
>> Re: Re: DirectX 10, no longer a Vista exclusive?
It really depends on which physics API is used.

If its Havok FX, then yes, your third PCI-E x16 (physical) slot will come in handy, as both nvidia and AMD will support that via GFX cards.

Lancool PC K62
Phenom II x3 @ 3.5Ghz
4GB DDR2-800
ASUS GTX570 DirectCU II
Merc Mar 16, 2007, 10:33am EDT Report Abuse
>> Re: Re: DirectX 10, no longer a Vista exclusive?
Yes and that is a nice place for an older vid card to provide a little more production. That's why it is hard for me to see a dedicated Physics card beating the Havoc solution. Why buy that when I can use my old vid card.

Merc
Modified Lian Li PC 7077A
Dual Watercooling Loops
Asus P5K Deluxe BIOS 0404
Core 2 Duo Q6600 (3600MHz@1.46v)
Max OC 4050MhHz at 1.65v
1 x XFX 8800GTX XXX Watercooled
2 GB Team Xtreme DDR2 800-PC6400
2 x 150gb WD in Raptors in RAID 0
1 x 640
Gerritt Mar 17, 2007, 08:02pm EDT Report Abuse
>> Re: Re: DirectX 10, no longer a Vista exclusive?
Sometimes it seems the more we go forward, the more we go back to truely inovative solutions in earlier markets. Try to take a look at some of the old architectural documents on Digital Electronics Corporatoin (DEC) PDP and VAX products, and you will see a rather interesting corellation between them and modern and announced infrastructures. I've stated before in multiple threads that the open bus infrastructure in the DEC computers, as well as the microcomputer equivelent of the Commodore AMIGA, if scaled for Moore's Law would provide as good if not better processing utilization/watt than todays offerings.

Though both the DEC and Commodore offerings provided for direct bus and memory control from all sub-systems, the new cell processors could permit for dynamic allocation of PU resources to all sub-systems.

Dual and quad core processors without the option of being dynamically applied to Memory I/O, GPU, physics, or general purpose processes, will most likely be outdated within a few years, if the code required to support cell processing is introduced.

Gerritt

Ad Astra Per Aspera
(A rough road leads to the Stars)
We all know what we know, and everyone else knows we are wrong.
System Specifications in BIO
Julian Innerhofer Mar 17, 2007, 09:10pm EDT Report Abuse
>> Re: Re: DirectX 10, no longer a Vista exclusive?
angryhippy aka Payton said:
Microsoft is ready to roll out an online service where console gamers and PC gamers can play against each other. The catch here? PC gamers will have that ability only if they are running Vista. XP ain't gonna get it. It's obvious MS is going to be doing everything it can to basically force the upgrade if you want to maintain a cutting edge gaming experience. I'm guessing this is not the last "Vista only" thing we will be seeing. MS is gonna do whatever it takes to force Vista down our throats. I doubt DX10 will be coming to an XP PC anytime soon.


Microsoft service to link console, PC gamers online
LOS ANGELES (Reuters) - Microsoft Corp. on Wednesday said its Live online service, which has attracted 6 million Xbox 360 console gamers, will be open in May to PC gamers who use its new Windows Vista operating system.

The move comes nearly a year after Microsoft Chairman Bill Gates said the company's vision was for "anywhere" gaming that would link video game consoles, cell phones and computers, and is a key step toward reaching that goal.

The PC version of Live will debut on May 8 with the launch of the Windows Vista version of "Halo 2," Microsoft's popular alien shooter game.

In June, Microsoft Game Studios will release "Shadowrun," the first game where Live will support competition between players on the Xbox 360 and PCs.

Live members will need just one account, whether they play on the Xbox 360, the PC, or both machines
source:http://snipurl.com/1d1pi


I don't think, that this will have a great influence on how many gamers buy windows. Most PC Online games are primarly for the PC. Some of them also have some X-Box-Players, but most players are PC players, so you have enough enemys when you can only play against PC users and if not, the few X-Box users will not make a big difference. Only a few people, who have a friend which is a X-Box player an want to play against him will upgrade to Vista because of that.

But I don't think, that MS will make DX10 available for XP.

- Game developers will develop games which run w/ DX9 and DX10, as long as the installed bases of systems, which have Vista and a DX10 card is not big enough (even now nearly all DX9 games wihich are release also support DX8, because there are many gamers, who srtill hav a DX8 card),
- Most gamers buy OEM systems. Only a small fraction build there systems for them selves. So if M$ makes DX10 Vista-exclusive, most gamers which want to buy a ned system will look for systems, which have Vista preinstalled.

John Ingram Mar 18, 2007, 06:10am EDT Report Abuse
>> Re: Re: DirectX 10, no longer a Vista exclusive?
Julian, I never thought this was all about promoting Vista anyway. All you have said above also shows that this could be seen as bringing PC gamers into the console fold, where the profits are, and away from PC gaming where the profits aren't. The demand that PC games for Windows have to work with the XBox controller, and the combining of this XBox and PC live strikes me as a way to wean PC gamers to see the XBox as a viable gaming machine that is cheaper than the PC upgrade to run Vista. Of course, it's a false economy, given the cost of console games and the lack of budget titles in the $9.99/$14.99 range, like you see on PC.

The only hope for PC gaming, as I see it, is the growth in Independent Gaming, and this site would do well to interview someone at Manifesto or Game Tunnel and help get the word out. For the sake of the whole PC gaming market and the sites that rely on it to a smaller or larger degree, like this one.

Gerritt Mar 18, 2007, 06:05pm EDT Report Abuse
>> Re: Re: DirectX 10, no longer a Vista exclusive?
John Ingram said:
Julian, I never thought this was all about promoting Vista anyway. All you have said above also shows that this could be seen as bringing PC gamers into the console fold, where the profits are, and away from PC gaming where the profits aren't. The demand that PC games for Windows have to work with the XBox controller, and the combining of this XBox and PC live strikes me as a way to wean PC gamers to see the XBox as a viable gaming machine that is cheaper than the PC upgrade to run Vista. Of course, it's a false economy, given the cost of console games and the lack of budget titles in the $9.99/$14.99 range, like you see on PC.

The only hope for PC gaming, as I see it, is the growth in Independent Gaming, and this site would do well to interview someone at Manifesto or Game Tunnel and help get the word out. For the sake of the whole PC gaming market and the sites that rely on it to a smaller or larger degree, like this one.


John, I'm not sure your argument holds water. That being that the consoles are where the profit is. I've been given to understand that the consoles themselves are sold primarily at or below cost, and that the profit is in the games themselves. So I can make just as much if not more money off of the same game running PC infrastructure as I do not have to underwrite the loss of the console itself. Microsoft is also openning up the XBOX Live site to PC users, but perhaps only to Vista users?
EDIT: Of course the stratagy of the consoles is to get as many platforms to run a game as possible, and the lower cost of the consoles themselves will lead to more gamers, thus more sales of games. If this is a given, then the console stratagy seems to work.

Gerritt

Ad Astra Per Aspera
(A rough road leads to the Stars)
We all know what we know, and everyone else knows we are wrong.
System Specifications in BIO
angryhippy Mar 18, 2007, 07:21pm EDT Report Abuse
>> Re: Re: DirectX 10, no longer a Vista exclusive?
Ya Gerritt I posted that Reuters article in the 3rd post in this thread. The online Console PC site will only be available to Vista and Xbox users. XP won't get you in. I'm not sure at all what the rational is, and in fact I don't even know which or how many XBox titles are available for PC either?

Get Hippied out!
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Marios Mar 19, 2007, 12:22pm EDT Report Abuse
>> Re: Re: DirectX 10, no longer a Vista exclusive?
D3D10 works in software emulation mode with WDDM 1.0 under Vista.
We need a WDDM 2.0 or even better a WDDM 2.1 update to get full D3D-10 support.
I see no D3D-10 support in Win XP ever.

Dublin_Gunner Mar 19, 2007, 01:48pm EDT Report Abuse
>> Re: Re: DirectX 10, no longer a Vista exclusive?
Why would you be using WDM 1 in VIsta?

Or do you mean D3D9?

Lancool PC K62
Phenom II x3 @ 3.5Ghz
4GB DDR2-800
ASUS GTX570 DirectCU II
ian elliott Mar 19, 2007, 02:08pm EDT Report Abuse
>> Re: Re: DirectX 10, no longer a Vista exclusive?

Julian Innerhofer Mar 19, 2007, 10:41pm EDT Report Abuse
>> Re: Re: DirectX 10, no longer a Vista exclusive?
Gerritt said:
John Ingram said:
Julian, I never thought this was all about promoting Vista anyway. All you have said above also shows that this could be seen as bringing PC gamers into the console fold, where the profits are, and away from PC gaming where the profits aren't. The demand that PC games for Windows have to work with the XBox controller, and the combining of this XBox and PC live strikes me as a way to wean PC gamers to see the XBox as a viable gaming machine that is cheaper than the PC upgrade to run Vista. Of course, it's a false economy, given the cost of console games and the lack of budget titles in the $9.99/$14.99 range, like you see on PC.

The only hope for PC gaming, as I see it, is the growth in Independent Gaming, and this site would do well to interview someone at Manifesto or Game Tunnel and help get the word out. For the sake of the whole PC gaming market and the sites that rely on it to a smaller or larger degree, like this one.


John, I'm not sure your argument holds water. That being that the consoles are where the profit is. I've been given to understand that the consoles themselves are sold primarily at or below cost, and that the profit is in the games themselves. So I can make just as much if not more money off of the same game running PC infrastructure as I do not have to underwrite the loss of the console itself. Microsoft is also openning up the XBOX Live site to PC users, but perhaps only to Vista users?
EDIT: Of course the stratagy of the consoles is to get as many platforms to run a game as possible, and the lower cost of the consoles themselves will lead to more gamers, thus more sales of games. If this is a given, then the console stratagy seems to work.

Gerritt


I don't think, taht the profit fpr console games is higher:

- Console games are more expensive, but this is only because teh game publishers have to pay a fee to the console maker (i.E. if you want to publish an X-Box game, you havbe to pay something to microsoft).
- Not even the console mvendors make big profits: they sell their consoles cheaper than the manufacturing costs and hope, that enough people buy games. This doesn't always work, M$ has lost about 100 Mio. $ per year w/ the old X-Box.

John Ingram Mar 20, 2007, 03:39am EDT Report Abuse
>> Re: Re: DirectX 10, no longer a Vista exclusive?
And if all PC gamers become XBox players? So Microsoft does not need to convert any game it publishes any more? Can get rid of a lot of PC programmers and can have just one advertising campaign? And of course, every single PC game publisher now only have consoles to work with, primarily XBox (as it's the easiest to code from PC coding) and so more income for M$!You think that wouldn't be more profitable for Microsoft?!

Dublin_Gunner Mar 20, 2007, 07:56am EDT Report Abuse
>> Re: Re: DirectX 10, no longer a Vista exclusive?
John Ingram said:
So Microsoft does not need to convert any game it publishes any more? Can get rid of a lot of PC programmers and can have just one advertising campaign? And of course, every single PC game publisher now only have consoles to work with, primarily XBox (as it's the easiest to code from PC coding) and so more income for M$!You think that wouldn't be more profitable for Microsoft?!



You'll find that the majority of the games are created by other devs & publishers, not MS.

They do however have to pay a licence fee to MS for creating an xbox game, unlike PC.

So therefore, the cost is born by the software house / publisher (EA etc), NOT MS. Apart from obviously, MS own games.

Ya see, MS dont own or control the software houses. Its up to the software house to decide if they want to code a game for Xbox or PC.

Did you think MS makes all the games for Xbox??? You sort of contradict yourself here saying MS must convert the games / pay for advertising / pay programmers, and then you state publishers would only have to code for one platform??

Lancool PC K62
Phenom II x3 @ 3.5Ghz
4GB DDR2-800
ASUS GTX570 DirectCU II
Merc Mar 20, 2007, 08:05am EDT Report Abuse
>> Re: Re: DirectX 10, no longer a Vista exclusive?
How can you poosibly say that all games would ever be written for PCs just because M$ deems it so. There will alays be a market for PC games and someone, somewhere will fill that niche. Neither does it make sense to kill off the PC platform, even if M$ could, just to boost profits for XBox. Gamers represent a significant market and many wouldn't go to XBox anyways.

Doesn't it make more sense to grow that market and keep it healthy? M$ is doing just that while at the same time taking more control of the market with their MS Games setup in Vista.

Merc
Modified Lian Li PC 7077A
Dual Watercooling Loops
Asus P5K Deluxe BIOS 0404
Core 2 Duo Q6600 (3600MHz@1.46v)
Max OC 4050MhHz at 1.65v
1 x XFX 8800GTX XXX Watercooled
2 GB Team Xtreme DDR2 800-PC6400
2 x 150gb WD in Raptors in RAID 0
1 x 640
SuPeR Xp Mar 20, 2007, 09:48am EDT Report Abuse
>> Re: Re: DirectX 10, no longer a Vista exclusive?
I've heard of a Direct X 9.0L in the past, but if my memory serves me well, it is not physically possible for Win XP to support DX10.

-------------------------------------------------
Custom AMD HAF 932 Red Dragon GAMING MOD!!!
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Dublin_Gunner Mar 20, 2007, 11:16am EDT Report Abuse
>> Re: Re: DirectX 10, no longer a Vista exclusive?
Super, as stated numerous times in this post 9L is for emulating DX9 in Vista. AKA - Vista Version of DX9.0C

Lancool PC K62
Phenom II x3 @ 3.5Ghz
4GB DDR2-800
ASUS GTX570 DirectCU II
John Ingram Mar 20, 2007, 12:47pm EDT Report Abuse
>> Re: Re: DirectX 10, no longer a Vista exclusive?
We all have to have this PC game debate with the backdrop that in 9 years the U.S. PC game market, at retail, has gone from roughly $2 billion to roughly $1 billion. Don't look at this in a bubble, look at it in terms of PC games declining year on year, partly because of console inroads, partly because of hardware demands, and partly because of so many smaller genres, that when added together become a big genre, have been dropped by the PC game industry. Think on all that when talking about this issue, rather than talking as though PC gaming started last week, and what's Vista going to do to it.


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