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  Yet another "Rate this build" type thingy... 
 
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Supreet Virdi Apr 14, 2007, 08:08pm EDT Report Abuse
>> Re: Yet another "Rate this build" type thingy...
I think the whole PhysX thing makes gaming so 'unreal'. I still think it has a long way to go and this technology is not fully developed.

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FordGT90Concept Apr 15, 2007, 03:27am EDT Report Abuse
>> Re: Yet another "Rate this build" type thingy...
Graphic rendering bogs computers down long before physics does for one simple reason: physics can easily be represented in binary, imagery can't.

________________________
If I remember what I forgot, I have not forgotten it.
Jarret M. Apr 15, 2007, 02:05pm EDT Report Abuse
>> Re: Yet another "Rate this build" type thingy...
I've read that when you buy a set of drives for RAID... you usually want to buy from 2 or 3 different stores... because if you buy them all from one place, there is a greater chance of the drives being from the same batch, and there is a greater possibility for multiple drive failures at the same time (or very close together)...

So may I suggest getting a different model HD's for your mirror set?


Also, If the guy your building for is not very computer savy, or is not to heavily into the hardware aspect (considering your putting it together)... is water cooling such a good idea? There is a lot of maintenance with water (adding water, cleaning, refilling, re-tubing, etc.). And if a pump ever dies, your main devices are pretty much toast if not monitored correctly. If its a fan system, and 1 fan dies, then you probably have a crash, and the system may be recovered.. of only 1 piece will need to be replaced..

Maybe a better fan cooling system would be better than water cooling in this case?

phil Apr 15, 2007, 02:14pm EDT Report Abuse
>> Re: Yet another "Rate this build" type thingy...
Jarret M. said:
I've read that when you buy a set of drives for RAID... you usually want to buy from 2 or 3 different stores... because if you buy them all from one place, there is a greater chance of the drives being from the same batch, and there is a greater possibility for multiple drive failures at the same time (or very close together)...

So may I suggest getting a different model HD's for your mirror set?


Also, If the guy your building for is not very computer savy, or is not to heavily into the hardware aspect (considering your putting it together)... is water cooling such a good idea? There is a lot of maintenance with water (adding water, cleaning, refilling, re-tubing, etc.). And if a pump ever dies, your main devices are pretty much toast if not monitored correctly. If its a fan system, and 1 fan dies, then you probably have a crash, and the system may be recovered.. of only 1 piece will need to be replaced..

Maybe a better fan cooling system would be better than water cooling in this case?


and if the batch of drives was a good batch?(99.99999% of the time) then you've just given yourself a pile of unknowns with unmatched drives... that drive theory is misfounded,, i do see the logic,, but it really is bad advice.


as for the water cooling, the same applies to air cooling, if they don't know to clean the heat sinks and fans then he can have failures all the same... with that logic water would be better especailly if he has pets... as a good quality water sytem, that's properly put together requires less maintenance then air cooling.

---
can't access HWA unless I use a proxy... lol

pfft ..f**k that! (almost sounds like work)
FordGT90Concept Apr 15, 2007, 03:26pm EDT Report Abuse
>> Re: Yet another "Rate this build" type thingy...
How often heatsinks have to be cleaned is completely dependant on the environment and how much dust pulled in. Some places can go 5+ years without being cleaned, others can only last about a year. Most fans high-rev when there's too much dust in the way to adequately cool the system (e.g. CPU fan). The owner notices that and takes care of it. That doesn't happen on water cooled systems so the chance of running into stability issues are greater.

________________________
If I remember what I forgot, I have not forgotten it.
someguy Apr 15, 2007, 03:47pm EDT Report Abuse
>> Re: Yet another "Rate this build" type thingy...

asus A8R-MVP
amd 4000+@3.1ghz
8800gts 640MB
2x1Gb G.Skill
creative x-fatality
antec 550 psu
antec 900 case
2 maxtor 160Gb hd's in Raid0
22 viewsonic VX2235
logitech G15 board
logitech G5 laser
xp pro x32/vista ultimate x32
FordGT90Concept Apr 15, 2007, 04:03pm EDT Report Abuse
>> Re: Yet another "Rate this build" type thingy...
Since we're talking about the site anyway. I recommend removing the "Valid XML" and "Valid CSS" links. First off, it's not valid. Second off, adding it requires you to check every page or else it could make you look like a fool. There's really no benefits to being validated anyway.

________________________
If I remember what I forgot, I have not forgotten it.
Adam Kolak Apr 15, 2007, 04:07pm EDT Report Abuse
>> Re: Yet another "Rate this build" type thingy...
We are CompTIA A+ certified (the same certification as comany's such as the Geek Squad) so your can put your trust in us. Our prices are very fair, and we know that once you give us a try, you will never go back to any other company.


Taken from site. Company is spelled "comany". You should run all your text through Microsoft Word's spell check before you post it on your site.

Adam Kolak
Moderator, Hardware Analysis
adam@hardwareanalysis.com
DFI LP P35-T2RS | Xeon Quad @ 3.2Ghz | 4GB DDR2-1000 | 8800GT 512MB | See Profile
someguy Apr 15, 2007, 04:11pm EDT Report Abuse
>> Re: Yet another "Rate this build" type thingy...
I removed my post and emailed Greg after I posted it for a minute. Man u guys are fast. I did not want to take away from his original post and start something here. I should have emailed him first but I forgot how to do that here, haven't been on in quite awhile, just getting back this week.

asus A8R-MVP
amd 4000+@3.1ghz
8800gts 640MB
2x1Gb G.Skill
creative x-fatality
antec 550 psu
antec 900 case
2 maxtor 160Gb hd's in Raid0
22 viewsonic VX2235
logitech G15 board
logitech G5 laser
xp pro x32/vista ultimate x32
Greg M Apr 15, 2007, 11:07pm EDT Report Abuse
>> Re: Yet another "Rate this build" type thingy...
Yeah... I know... I'm so lazy...

Sadly, almost no one visits the site for gandmcomptuers... Everyone goes to games.gandmcomptuers.com or to any of the files that I point them to.

I am going to re-build the site one of these weekends when I have time.

He specifically wanted water cooling, and since the computer is going to be OC'd, I think it needs it.

I am going to skip the PhysX card, but I AM going to get the KillerNIC. It does do something, and since this is a $15k PC, I'm running out of places to spend money! :X

----
FX-55, 2x 1GB GSkill, X1800XT (512MB), 2x250GB RAID-0, DFI SLI-D
http://www.gandmpc.com <-My 'project'
http://www.knownpsycho.com <-Web games!
Shadow_Ops_Airman1 Apr 15, 2007, 11:21pm EDT Report Abuse
>> Re: Yet another "Rate this build" type thingy...
ya it should relieve a little more strain off the CPU. Btw there is 1 more sound card maker i would recommend and that is HT-Omega.

AMD Athlon XP-M 2500+ (133x14= 1867MHz) (209x11= 2299MHz)
DFI LP NF2 Ultra-B (Hellfire 3EG Rev2)
Antec SX800, Neo HE 500, 4 Antec 8CM Fans
Thermalright SI-97 1 Antec Tricool 12CM Fan
CL SB XFi Xtreme Music
2x Barracuda HDs (250/400)
2x Samsung Write
Gerritt Apr 16, 2007, 12:39am EDT Report Abuse
>> Re: Yet another "Rate this build" type thingy...
Greg,
Forgive me if I've missed anything and am hitting on old issues.

Power/passive cooling:
I'm not sure if I've seen a definitive definition of the chassis to be used for this build or not.
This leads me to a concern about the dual 8800s and the number of HDDs to be crammed into this chassis, no matter what the make. Power wise, you need to incorporate a GREAT UPS (I recommend APC) into the mix, to ensure stable power all of the time.

Processor:
Insofar as multi-processor systems, vs multi-core systems, I've found that Supermicro and Tyan both make very good workstation and server capable MBs, but neither are great for OC'ing, though very stable....hmm a correlation there perhaps? As this is to be primarily a "gaming system", you may want to rethink the multi-processor approach, at least for now. If you can find a MB that supports the Quad-Core Processors when they become readily available, and supports multi-processors, then this is probably your way to go (I'd keep track of the Supermicro and Tyan products for this).

Video:
Keep in mind that the NV GForce 8800GTX cards are all (to the best of my knowledge) dual slot implementations, so will restrict the available openings of the other PCI-E and PCI slots on most MBs. Whatever MB you choose should support SLI-32 which enables 16x communication to both slots otherwise you are probably wasting (as opposed to waisting) money on the SLI configuration with little or zero gain. The ASUS MBs support this feature, and others may.

HDDs.
You may get better bang for the buck, so to speak with an internal 10k or 15K rpm set of 3-4 disk assigned through a dedicated multibus RAID controller, and a NAS (Network Attached Storage) appliance over incorporating all of the devices internally. If you go for a 4 drive implementation the 4rth drive should be a "hot spare", that will automatically take the place of a failed primary.
The rational is as follows: You want to have very high reliability as well as very high speed connectivity to your storage devices. These storage devices are of two types, those that are system related, and those that are data related. Now I percieve a requirement for multiple optical media devices, such as local HD-DVD (and or BR(Blu-ray)), DVD-+RW, depending on the speeds, and devices you could end up with 4 or more SATA or ATAPI connected devices, thus limiting even further the onboard connectivity to RAID resources.
Back to the dedicated multibus RAID controller, wether this is is for SA-SCSI or SATA, it provides for more buses and ports, as well as providing for a BATTERY Backed OPTION!! A VERY IMPORTANTconsideration if you have less than perfect power, or even if you do...the battery will hold your last unposted read/writes until power is resummed, thus helping to mitigate data faults.

I would also want to suggest, as it appears this PC will be on a LAN as well as WAN that you put the bulk of your storage on a Network Attached Service type device. A lot if not most MBs of the caliber that we are discussing support at least 2 Gb Ethernet Ports, so given that some of the best Internet connectivity is between 3-10MBs, the overhead associated with gaming is minimal, though if any of this storage is to be shared across the LAN we have a couple of options. First is to put everything on a single 1Gb port, so everything is shared. The second is to attach the NAS device to the second 1Gb port on this system through a separate VLAN, and permit or reject access based upon the VLAN/IP membership. This will lower the overhead, while providing for access to the multi-TERABYTE storage mechanism to multiple machines within the environment, without the requirement that it route through the machine that you are building.

Just my thoughts.....good hunting!

Gerritt

Ad Astra Per Aspera
(A rough road leads to the Stars)
We all know what we know, and everyone else knows we are wrong.
System Specifications in BIO
Gerritt Apr 16, 2007, 12:47am EDT Report Abuse
>> Re: Yet another "Rate this build" type thingy...
Greg, I forgot about the Water cooling aspect.
I'm not sure that WC is good for a system such as you are building.
Have you looked at how hard it is to implement a dual processor water cooling system that makes sense?
I've got a single, multicore processor implementation that due to replacement of my GPU, I can't make work for a single CPU/Chipset/GPU environment....there's just no space!
I've removed the GPU cooling when I went with the 8800, but can't go SLI for now unless I also remove the MB/NB (northbridge) component.
The processor, just like DRAM, GPU, and HDD are just parts of the system...no matter what it cost. so are you spending an extra $3000 for something that only gives a .06% increase? If so, I'd hold that money back, and provide for a upgrade support contract given the present trends.

Gerritt

Ad Astra Per Aspera
(A rough road leads to the Stars)
We all know what we know, and everyone else knows we are wrong.
System Specifications in BIO
Dublin_Gunner Apr 16, 2007, 06:00am EDT Report Abuse
>> Re: Yet another "Rate this build" type thingy...
Greg, killer NIC??

You ARE effing joking arent you?

Lancool PC K62
Phenom II x3 @ 3.5Ghz
4GB DDR2-800
ASUS GTX570 DirectCU II
Greg M Apr 16, 2007, 06:53am EDT Report Abuse
>> Re: Yet another "Rate this build" type thingy...
Gerritt said:
Greg,
Forgive me if I've missed anything and am hitting on old issues.

Power/passive cooling:
I'm not sure if I've seen a definitive definition of the chassis to be used for this build or not.
This leads me to a concern about the dual 8800s and the number of HDDs to be crammed into this chassis, no matter what the make. Power wise, you need to incorporate a GREAT UPS (I recommend APC) into the mix, to ensure stable power all of the time.

The I have taken into account the amount of power, and once I have final configuration nailed down, I will pick a suitable power supply. The case will likely be a custom designed one from http://www.ProtoCase.com . Much of the heat (the CPU and 8800GTXs) will be taken care of by the water cooling system (exiting the top of the case). The HDDs will all have an 80mm fan blowing across each pair.

Processor:
Insofar as multi-processor systems, vs multi-core systems, I've found that Supermicro and Tyan both make very good workstation and server capable MBs, but neither are great for OC'ing, though very stable....hmm a correlation there perhaps? As this is to be primarily a "gaming system", you may want to rethink the multi-processor approach, at least for now. If you can find a MB that supports the Quad-Core Processors when they become readily available, and supports multi-processors, then this is probably your way to go (I'd keep track of the Supermicro and Tyan products for this).

We have hit this. I'm going back to the QX6800 and the ASUS P5NT.
If this wasn't a nearly pure gaming system, I'd go with 2x quad core Kentsfields.

Video:
Keep in mind that the NV GForce 8800GTX cards are all (to the best of my knowledge) dual slot implementations, so will restrict the available openings of the other PCI-E and PCI slots on most MBs. Whatever MB you choose should support SLI-32 which enables 16x communication to both slots otherwise you are probably wasting (as opposed to waisting) money on the SLI configuration with little or zero gain. The ASUS MBs support this feature, and others may.

Yes, I would get a 32x Mobo (like the ASUS one noted a few times in this thread).
The size of the 8800GTXs has been taken into account. (There may or may not be a single-slot water cooling option for them. I'll have to look into it some more)

HDDs.
You may get better bang for the buck, so to speak with an internal 10k or 15K rpm set of 3-4 disk assigned through a dedicated multibus RAID controller, and a NAS (Network Attached Storage) appliance over incorporating all of the devices internally. If you go for a 4 drive implementation the 4rth drive should be a "hot spare", that will automatically take the place of a failed primary.
The rational is as follows: You want to have very high reliability as well as very high speed connectivity to your storage devices. These storage devices are of two types, those that are system related, and those that are data related. Now I percieve a requirement for multiple optical media devices, such as local HD-DVD (and or BR(Blu-ray)), DVD-+RW, depending on the speeds, and devices you could end up with 4 or more SATA or ATAPI connected devices, thus limiting even further the onboard connectivity to RAID resources.
Back to the dedicated multibus RAID controller, wether this is is for SA-SCSI or SATA, it provides for more buses and ports, as well as providing for a BATTERY Backed OPTION!! A VERY IMPORTANTconsideration if you have less than perfect power, or even if you do...the battery will hold your last unposted read/writes until power is resummed, thus helping to mitigate data faults.

I would also want to suggest, as it appears this PC will be on a LAN as well as WAN that you put the bulk of your storage on a Network Attached Service type device. A lot if not most MBs of the caliber that we are discussing support at least 2 Gb Ethernet Ports, so given that some of the best Internet connectivity is between 3-10MBs, the overhead associated with gaming is minimal, though if any of this storage is to be shared across the LAN we have a couple of options. First is to put everything on a single 1Gb port, so everything is shared. The second is to attach the NAS device to the second 1Gb port on this system through a separate VLAN, and permit or reject access based upon the VLAN/IP membership. This will lower the overhead, while providing for access to the multi-TERABYTE storage mechanism to multiple machines within the environment, without the requirement that it route through the machine that you are building.

He already has some major NAS going on (2+TB) with his current PC. He wants about 4TB of space with the new one.

I am agreeing that there are far too many HDDs in the computer right now. I may 'limit' it to 6x 150GB SATA Raptors in RAID-5/6
I may also throw a 750GB drive in there for 'fun'.

Just my thoughts.....good hunting!

Gerritt

Thanks.

----
FX-55, 2x 1GB GSkill, X1800XT (512MB), 2x250GB RAID-0, DFI SLI-D
http://www.gandmpc.com <-My 'project'
http://www.knownpsycho.com <-Web games!

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