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  Re: Global warming, fact or farce? 
 
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Bungle Jun 12, 2008, 05:09pm EDT Report Abuse
>> Re: Re: Global warming, fact or farce?
FordGT90Concept said:
Jim H said:
I would make any discoveries made by this program public knowledge...

Technologies advanced beyond fission and fusion power could potentially be a danger to national security (like fission). Such things need to be researched by the government and completely exploited to know there is no way for it to be weaponized (or at least the steps it takes to weaponize it so we know what to watch for). Then they can become semi-public knowledge (again like fission) where the information required to weaponize it is closely guarded.

I bring this up because the best sources of energy are major sources of heat/explosives. The more powerful the source of energy, the more potent it is as a weapon. Frequently, the weapons (e.g. atomic bomb) came before the associated power sources (nuclear power plant) because it is easier to blow something up than contain its energy.


I know, I was trying to get an idea across without writing 400 pages of rules and regulations. But yeah there would definately have to be some common sense restrictions on any potentially weaponizable (is that a word) tech.

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dark41 Jun 12, 2008, 07:38pm EDT Report Abuse
>> Re: Re: Global warming, fact or farce?
Jim H said:
The problem with that is that increasing the taxes paid as a percentage of income as income goes up punishes success. The other issue is that the person who is living below the poverty line's vote counts just as much as the millionare's. So the impoverished person can vote to take the millionares money away and have it redistributed to them and they have every bit as much say in what happens to the rich persons money as they do. This is the eqivalent of me having just as much power as you in deciding if you should empty your bank account into mine or not. This is not fair in my eyes.


Exactly the opposite. Rich people don't earn money on the same scale as poor people. The game is fixed from the start. A poor person struggles just to do the things the rich person takes for granted (EG: eat, own a house, own transportation, stay healthy, etc.). Everyone should have the bare necessities of life before having their wages penalized.

I'd argue that many failed CEOs make as much money as all their hourly employees put together. The CEO is rewarded before they prove themselves and rewarded whether they succeed or fail. Not so for the hourly employee. An hourly employee may increase their output by 100% and get a cost of living raise for their effort. If they don't produce, they're fired without stock options or a pension plan or any kind of financial umbrella. Hardly a fair system. That's not rewarding for success, it's rewarding/penalizing for being born into given situations and should be stopped.

Jim H said:
Taxes take freedom away from me in that they reduce my ability to do other things with the money. The poor are often the first to vote for tax increases yet they bare none of the pain of said tax increase, we should all bare this burden together and equally so, so that no one forgets that the government gets its money from the citizens.


There's no sense of fair play in your system. "Equally so" isn't equal by any standard. Sorry, but there is a limit to the amount of money any 1 person should be able to have since money translates into power. Many poor people work much harder than rich people but aren't paid accordingly. I'll never understand how a CEO is worth more to society than a Dr or scientist, for example.

If you're born into enough money and prestige to get you into Harvard, you've already got many advantages over someone who doesn't in that you can choose what work you do (or don't do), where you live, etc.. Once you reach a certain fanancial status, I couldn't care less about your rights to spend money as you see fit. It's time to put back into the system that created your luxurious existence. You should have to put back at a higher rate than someone who will never know a luxurious existence and works just as hard.

A vote is based upon an individual's understanding of the candidate. Everyone knows the rich control politics in the USA. Rich people control the media. Rich people control every aspect of our lives. They decide who will run for office and who will win. They finance campaigns to trash anyone they don't like and finance the campaigns of the candidates they want to win. The poor can't afford to contribute and are forced to make decisions on whatever information the rich want them to have or not have,

There are many more poor people in the USA than rich people. They haven't voted to put the rich people's money in their pockets.

One of the nicest things about Australia to me is the small divide between the social classes. It reminds me more of the USA in the '60s and '70s. People actually have time to spend with their families. Most shops are closed on weekends.

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dark41 Jun 12, 2008, 07:47pm EDT Report Abuse
>> Re: Re: Global warming, fact or farce?
Jim H said:
The cause is that as you grow larger you start to need more and more managers and eventually managers to manage managers. Management does not directly generate revenue and is relatively expensive in comparison to the average worker.


That's called overhead. And don't kid yourself that Walmart nor any big corporation is efficient in their management. I've been a member of management in a couple different corporations. Never again. Managers sit around having meetings about when to schedule meetings. They work to find reasons why things can't be done on schedule, and often go shopping during work hours.

Jim H said:

The Government will create bureaucracy and mountains of red tape along with managers and so much of it that most of the money going into the "health care" system will be wasted before it gets to the hospital. If you don't believe me look at the pubic school system. Small private schools cost less per student and are much better schools because they don't have greedy self serving politicians figuring out ways to siphon off funds every way they can. We will be better off if we let the private sector manage health care, and remove the taxes that make buying your own private heath insurance cost prohibative to those that are self employed. Laws already require hospitals to give emergency care to patients weather they can afford it or not.


The private sector has already had their chance and failed miserably. As I said, the system can work and does work in many other countries. It's easy to sit back and say why it won't work, and much harder to make it work. Of course there will be problems. Some of us live to conquer problems, and some of us live to point them out. Conquerers should make 10x the money pointers do. But then conquerers are much more likely to give back what they don't need to fix more problems. ;)

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Bungle Jun 12, 2008, 08:48pm EDT Report Abuse
>> Re: Re: Global warming, fact or farce?
dark41 said:
The CEO is rewarded before they prove themselves and rewarded whether they succeed or fail.


In the vast majoritiy of situations you have to prove yourself to even get to position where you will even be considered for a postion as a CEO.

dark41 said:
Not so for the hourly employee. An hourly employee may increase their output by 100% and get a cost of living raise for their effort. If they don't produce, they're fired without stock options or a pension plan or any kind of financial umbrella. Hardly a fair system. That's not rewarding for success, it's rewarding/penalizing for being born into given situations and should be stopped.


Here's a thought.... get a better job or go acuire the training to do so. There are college loans, the military will pay your way through if you join, the GI bill is there for vets. There are grants and scholarships available to just about anyone willing to look hard enough. I do not buy that people (in the US anyway) are born into situations that lock them into a life of poverty. I have done my time in menial retail jobs, washing dishes, fast food, hell even doing yard work to make ends meet. Poor is an attitude for the most part, I've met many people in past jobs that had decided that they were doomed to a life of stocking shelves and living off food stamps so they didn't try to better themselves. People decide that they can't do it and give up on themselves. Then turn to those that are successful and expect them to cough up the dough to run entitilement programs for people that choose not to apply themselves. There is always a way out, if you take all the money in the world and distribute it evenly to every person in 10 years those that are rich now will be rich again and those that are poor now will be poor again. There will be winners and there will be losers A fiscal utopia is not an attainable goal.


Once you reach a certain fanancial status, I couldn't care less about your rights to spend money as you see fit. It's time to put back into the system that created your luxurious existence. You should have to put back at a higher rate than someone who will never know a luxurious existence and works just as hard.


Have you considered moving to China or Cuba im pretty sure thats pretty much their philosophy on what to do with those that get ahead?

"In a higher phase of communist society, after the enslaving subordination of the individual to the division of labor, and therewith also the antithesis between mental and physical labor, has vanished; after labor has become not only a means of life but life's prime want; after the productive forces have also increased with the all-around development of the individual, and all the springs of co-operative wealth flow more abundantly -- only then can the narrow horizon of bourgeois right be crossed in its entirety and society inscribe on its banners: From each according to his ability, to each according to his needs!"

-Karl Heinrich Marx, father of communism


dark41 said:
There are many more poor people in the USA than rich people. They haven't voted to put the rich people's money in their pockets.


Anytime one person's taxes are used to fund something they will not use or gain no benefit from money is being taken from a "rich" person and given to a "poor" person through a redistrobution of wealth program. There are pleanty of these, everytime "poor" person votes for someone running under the banner of a new or expanded redistrobution of wealth program (Hillary care or Obama care) they are voting to take money from the rich and funnel it into their own pockets.

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dark41 Jun 13, 2008, 12:33pm EDT Report Abuse
>> Re: Re: Global warming, fact or farce?
Jim H said:

Here's a thought.... get a better job or go acuire the training to do so. There are college loans, the military will pay your way through if you join, the GI bill is there for vets.


See, you obviously have never lived in a rural area in WI. Try to understand that there ARE NO BETTER JOBS TO BE HAD. People are lined up for the better jobs, and only those with education AND experience get a foot in the door. The average national income in 2001 was $42,000. Try to imagine how many jobs under 20k/yr there are to bring that average down so low.

When I was young 17, I joined the USMC. After getting out I moved to other states to acquire experience as a manager, so that when the job did become available in WI, I was the best candidate for the job. I was lucky that by the time I was 30 I found a very good job in WI, and before my kids started school. I wanted to raise my kids in the country and avoid city gangs, traffic, pollution, and attitudes. I wanted my kids to have the same country values that I'd grown up with. I was fortunate that it worked out for me.

Unfortunately that scenario doesn't work for adults with families who've worked at the same factory for 15 years, until it took it's decent income and moved to Mexico. Narrow minded veiws such as yours don't take the average rural family situation into consideration. These people aren't asking for hand outs. All they ask is enough to support their family in a decent life style.

Jim H said:

Have you considered moving to China or Cuba im pretty sure thats pretty much their philosophy on what to do with those that get ahead?


Hardly the same thing. No one gets ahead in China or Cuba. No one is even close to making $160k/yr in those areas, let alone $1.6 million. Now you're just scrambling for material. No one is stopping you from getting rich in the USA. We're just asking you to contribute more to the system that allowed you to do so. If you make $1 million/yr, pay half in taxes. You're still netting more money per yr than most people will gross in 15 yrs. I'm supposed to care if you didn't make more? Are you insane??

Jim H said:

Anytime one person's taxes are used to fund something they will not use or gain no benefit from money is being taken from a "rich" person and given to a "poor" person through a redistrobution of wealth program. There are pleanty of these, everytime "poor" person votes for someone running under the banner of a new or expanded redistrobution of wealth program (Hillary care or Obama care) they are voting to take money from the rich and funnel it into their own pockets.


Um.. Every time every person pays taxes they are funding something they'll never use nor gain benefit from. That's the nature of taxes. The little taxes that the poor pay tossed into the same pot as those of the wealthy. The problem is that the little money the poor would be paying at 30% of gross hurts them a lot more than the 30% the rich person pays hurts them.

Do you think poor people would have willingly paid taxes to support legislators who approved NAFTA so they could become poorer? It hurt poor people much worse to have their little bit of taxes spent on a cause they didn't believe in than it hurt a rich person to spend much more on a cause they didn't believe in.

That's what you don't seem to get. You say you want equal, but the loss to someone on the poverty level is much more drastic than it is for someone not even close to it. Your way is unfair. My way evens out the loss for both. The rich person gives up a yatch for a few more yrs. Woe is me. Let's see you raise a family of 4 on $16,000 and pay taxes at 30%. What you see as necessities, the poor manage to live without. What the poor see as necessities, you take for granted. Your answer is that they're too stupid to find a better job. The truth is that you have no idea what jobs are available or how hard they are to get.

There's no need to discuss this any further as you're obviously not capable of understanding the issues. You want what you want because it suits you and couldn't care less if it suits others or not. They need to change their situation to yours for your solution to work. That's just not possible, although you can't see it.

And that's why people shouldn't have too much money, to use their power to their advantage and screw everyone else in the process. :)

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FordGT90Concept Jun 13, 2008, 12:57pm EDT Report Abuse
>> Re: Re: Global warming, fact or farce?
I like the idea of the fair tax just because there aren't any tax brackets. The problem with tax brackets is that if you move up a bracket and weren't expecting it, you're going to have to shell out thousands of dollars because that money was not withheld throughout the previous year. Tax brackets are better for the nation as a whole but there needs to be a way to smooth the transition between brackets (e.g. your tax rate is fixed at the beginning of the year and does not change until next tax year).

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dark41 Jun 13, 2008, 12:58pm EDT Report Abuse
>> Re: Re: Global warming, fact or farce?
Jim H said:

In the vast majoritiy of situations you have to prove yourself to even get to position where you will even be considered for a postion as a CEO.


This is a topic on it's own. You think a CEO is successful because his company does well? He may be a good fit for the company and their stock holders, but the CEO has very little to do with whether a company succeeds or not. CEOs usually have sales backrounds for a good reason. They typical CEO has a golden tongue and almost no knowledge about production processes/efficiencies, let alone quality control, maintenance, or warehousing. The CEO concentrates on budgets, sales, and the stock holders. The people in the company make the CEO look good or not. The many (supposedly) successful CEOs that move on to different companies and fail miserably proves my point. The CEO is dependent upon the people under them. CEOs are overvalued and overpaid, period.

Man, even as a shift supervisor I understood that my employees were the backbone of the company. The hourly employees. The grunts. The unskilled laborers who made the lowest income of anyone in the company. It was up to me to keep them motivated, trained, and provide them with the resources to be able to do their jobs efficiently. The CEO had absolutely nothing to do with their performance nor mine, nor my boss's other than to set their budgets. Yet any of us could make or break our CEO at will.

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dark41 Jun 13, 2008, 01:08pm EDT Report Abuse
>> Re: Re: Global warming, fact or farce?
FordGT90Concept said:
I like the idea of the fair tax just because there aren't any tax brackets. The problem with tax brackets is that if you move up a bracket and weren't expecting it, you're going to have to shell out thousands of dollars because that money was not withheld throughout the previous year. Tax brackets are better for the nation as a whole but there needs to be a way to smooth the transition between brackets (e.g. your tax rate is fixed at the beginning of the year and does not change until next tax year).


That's true to an extent, but there are ways around it. I've never paid taxes at the end of the year in my life. I've always had more taken out than was necessary, so that I got a nice return at the end of the year. That's my "self imposed" bonus, which also allowed me to save $ in nice chunks. ;)

I have to chuckle when people argue that they want all their money paid to them so they can earn the interest rather than giving it to the government. The amount of interest saved wouldn't amount to a week's grocery bill for me. Having the gov withhold a cushion is like insurance to me that I'd never be bitten by unexpected bracket changes. Honestly, once a person makes a decent living it's quite simple to live without more. But then I've never been the typical American in that I never relied upon credit either. If I can't afford something with cash, I can't afford it. :)

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Bungle Jun 13, 2008, 04:21pm EDT Report Abuse
>> Re: Re: Global warming, fact or farce?

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